*AI Summary*
The appropriate expert panel to review this topic would be *Human Behavioral Ecologists and Evolutionary Psychologists.*
### Abstract:
This analysis, led by human behavioral ecologist Dr. Barnaby Dixson, investigates the evolutionary mechanisms underlying human male facial hair (beards), treating it as a complex case study in sexual selection that defies simple analogies to classic ornamental displays (e.g., the peacock’s tail). Empirical research indicates attractiveness preferences for beards among heterosexual women are highly variable and context-dependent, with overall effect sizes being small to trivial, often showing a non-linear preference for thick stubble (10 days) over full beards or clean-shaven faces. Stronger, unambiguous effects are observed in intrasexual competition contexts, where beards function as robust signals of age, sexual maturity, dominance, and aggression. Null findings were observed for the ovulatory shift and parasite stress hypotheses. However, strong experimental evidence supports a *negative frequency dependence* effect, where the rarity of a specific beard style temporarily increases its attractiveness. Critically, the unique hormonal pathway governing beard growth (dihydrotestosterone dependence) suggests it acts as a potentially *dishonest* signal of physical formidability compared to crania-facial masculinity. The finding that new mothers rate bearded men higher on parental investment and nurturing qualities challenges the traditional "masculinity trade-off" narrative in human mate choice.
### Summarization:
* *0:00 The Darwinian Puzzle:* The evolution of the beard is presented as a paradoxical trait, similar to the peacock’s tail, because its ostentatious, seemingly costly, and impractical nature (5:59) suggests strong sexual selection, yet its function is unclear.
* *9:43 Attractiveness Findings are Mixed:* Studies on beard attractiveness are split approximately 50/50 among women. Preferences are generally non-linear, with *thick stubble (10 days)* often rated as the most attractive facial hair level (13:17), suggesting cultural intervention (grooming) is crucial to optimizing the trait's appeal.
* *18:13 Null Hypotheses:* Dr. Dixson reports null findings for several established evolutionary psychology hypotheses when applied to beards:
* *Ovulatory Shift Hypothesis (18:19):* No significant increase in preference for beards during women's periovulatory fertile phase.
* *Parasite Stress/Pathogen Avoidance (20:22):* Priming participants with images of bugs/parasites yielded no change in beard preferences, rejecting the idea that "clean shaven" signals freedom from ectoparasites.
* *23:57 Frequency Dependence Demonstrated:* Experimental evidence supports that preferences for facial hair styles (shaven, stubble, bearded) are *negatively frequency dependent* (29:23). When a particular style is rare, it is rated as significantly more attractive, aligning with historical cyclical fashion trends observed over 150 years (26:59).
* *35:31 Ecological Predictors of Beard Frequency:* Men in higher population density areas with greater income disparity exhibit higher rates of beardedness, suggesting beards are prioritized for signaling sexual maturity and status in highly competitive socioeconomic environments (38:00).
* *45:01 Beard/Facial Masculinity Interaction:* Beards can either augment an already masculine face or, more interestingly, act as a *masking effect* (47:30) for men with less mature or more feminine facial features. The beard universally increases perceived age and maturity (47:56).
* *57:49 Beards Signal Dominance and Threat:* The most robust finding across studies and cultures (Samoa and New Zealand) is that beards significantly increase perceptions of *social dominance, aggressiveness, and threat* (58:33). Participants are faster and more accurate at assigning "anger" to bearded faces than clean-shaven ones (1:01:15).
* *1:07:47 Beard as a Dishonest Signal:* Unlike crania-facial masculinity, which correlates with upper body strength (1:04:01) and requires high circulating testosterone, beard growth relies on the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone via the 5-alpha reductase 2 enzyme (1:09:08). This biological difference means beards are *not an honest signal of underlying physical formidability* (1:11:15).
* *1:17:44 Null Finding for Defensive Function:* Analysis of high-intensity conflict data (UFC/MMA fighters) found no statistical evidence that beards function as a regenerative protective buffer against injury (like a lion’s mane) or as a fighting handicap (grab handle) (1:19:10).
* *1:32:04 Challenge to the Masculinity Trade-Off:* While masculine traits are typically theorized to signal good genes but poor parental investment, beards contradict this. New mothers (with infants under one year old) rate bearded men significantly higher on dimensions of *parental investment and nurturance* than women without children (1:33:48), suggesting beards may signal long-term investment viability.
* *1:42:25 Conclusion on Signaling:* Beards unambiguously communicate basic traits (biological male, sexually mature, adult status) but exhibit small, variable effect sizes for sexual attraction. Their large effect sizes are consistently found in the domain of intrasexual signaling (dominance/aggression) and, surprisingly, paternal quality (1:46:15).
AI-generated summary created with gemini-2.5-flash-preview-09-2025 for free via RocketRecap-dot-com. (Input: 42,752 tokens, Output: 1,197 tokens, Est. cost: $0.0158).Below, I will provide input for an example video (comprising of title, description, and transcript, in this order) and the corresponding abstract and summary I expect. Afterward, I will provide a new transcript that I want a summarization in the same format.
**Please give an abstract of the transcript and then summarize the transcript in a self-contained bullet list format.** Include starting timestamps, important details and key takeaways.
Example Input:
Fluidigm Polaris Part 2- illuminator and camera
mikeselectricstuff
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Fluidigm Polaris part 1 : • Fluidigm Polaris (Part 1) - Biotech g...
Ebay listings: https://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/mikeselect...
Merch https://mikeselectricstuff.creator-sp...
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mikeselectricstuff
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40 Comments
@robertwatsonbath
6 hours ago
Thanks Mike. Ooof! - with the level of bodgery going on around 15:48 I think shame would have made me do a board re spin, out of my own pocket if I had to.
1
Reply
@Muonium1
9 hours ago
The green LED looks different from the others and uses phosphor conversion because of the "green gap" problem where green InGaN emitters suffer efficiency droop at high currents. Phosphide based emitters don't start becoming efficient until around 600nm so also can't be used for high power green emitters. See the paper and plot by Matthias Auf der Maur in his 2015 paper on alloy fluctuations in InGaN as the cause of reduced external quantum efficiency at longer (green) wavelengths.
4
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1 reply
@tafsirnahian669
10 hours ago (edited)
Can this be used as an astrophotography camera?
Reply
mikeselectricstuff
·
1 reply
@mikeselectricstuff
6 hours ago
Yes, but may need a shutter to avoid light during readout
Reply
@2010craggy
11 hours ago
Narrowband filters we use in Astronomy (Astrophotography) are sided- they work best passing light in one direction so I guess the arrows on the filter frames indicate which way round to install them in the filter wheel.
1
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@vitukz
12 hours ago
A mate with Channel @extractions&ire could use it
2
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@RobertGallop
19 hours ago
That LED module says it can go up to 28 amps!!! 21 amps for 100%. You should see what it does at 20 amps!
Reply
@Prophes0r
19 hours ago
I had an "Oh SHIT!" moment when I realized that the weird trapezoidal shape of that light guide was for keystone correction of the light source.
Very clever.
6
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@OneBiOzZ
20 hours ago
given the cost of the CCD you think they could have run another PCB for it
9
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@tekvax01
21 hours ago
$20 thousand dollars per minute of run time!
1
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@tekvax01
22 hours ago
"We spared no expense!" John Hammond Jurassic Park.
*(that's why this thing costs the same as a 50-seat Greyhound Bus coach!)
Reply
@florianf4257
22 hours ago
The smearing on the image could be due to the fact that you don't use a shutter, so you see brighter stripes under bright areas of the image as you still iluminate these pixels while the sensor data ist shifted out towards the top. I experienced this effect back at university with a LN-Cooled CCD for Spectroscopy. The stripes disapeared as soon as you used the shutter instead of disabling it in the open position (but fokussing at 100ms integration time and continuous readout with a focal plane shutter isn't much fun).
12
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mikeselectricstuff
·
1 reply
@mikeselectricstuff
12 hours ago
I didn't think of that, but makes sense
2
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@douro20
22 hours ago (edited)
The red LED reminds me of one from Roithner Lasertechnik. I have a Symbol 2D scanner which uses two very bright LEDs from that company, one red and one red-orange. The red-orange is behind a lens which focuses it into an extremely narrow beam.
1
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@RicoElectrico
23 hours ago
PFG is Pulse Flush Gate according to the datasheet.
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@dcallan812
23 hours ago
Very interesting. 2x
Reply
@littleboot_
1 day ago
Cool interesting device
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@dav1dbone
1 day ago
I've stripped large projectors, looks similar, wonder if some of those castings are a magnesium alloy?
Reply
@kevywevvy8833
1 day ago
ironic that some of those Phlatlight modules are used in some of the cheapest disco lights.
1
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1 reply
@bill6255
1 day ago
Great vid - gets right into subject in title, its packed with information, wraps up quickly. Should get a YT award! imho
3
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@JAKOB1977
1 day ago (edited)
The whole sensor module incl. a 5 grand 50mpix sensor for 49 £.. highest bid atm
Though also a limited CCD sensor, but for the right buyer its a steal at these relative low sums.
Architecture Full Frame CCD (Square Pixels)
Total Number of Pixels 8304 (H) × 6220 (V) = 51.6 Mp
Number of Effective Pixels 8208 (H) × 6164 (V) = 50.5 Mp
Number of Active Pixels 8176 (H) × 6132 (V) = 50.1 Mp
Pixel Size 6.0 m (H) × 6.0 m (V)
Active Image Size 49.1 mm (H) × 36.8 mm (V)
61.3 mm (Diagonal),
645 1.1x Optical Format
Aspect Ratio 4:3
Horizontal Outputs 4
Saturation Signal 40.3 ke−
Output Sensitivity 31 V/e−
Quantum Efficiency
KAF−50100−CAA
KAF−50100−AAA
KAF−50100−ABA (with Lens)
22%, 22%, 16% (Peak R, G, B)
25%
62%
Read Noise (f = 18 MHz) 12.5 e−
Dark Signal (T = 60°C) 42 pA/cm2
Dark Current Doubling Temperature 5.7°C
Dynamic Range (f = 18 MHz) 70.2 dB
Estimated Linear Dynamic Range
(f = 18 MHz)
69.3 dB
Charge Transfer Efficiency
Horizontal
Vertical
0.999995
0.999999
Blooming Protection
(4 ms Exposure Time)
800X Saturation Exposure
Maximum Date Rate 18 MHz
Package Ceramic PGA
Cover Glass MAR Coated, 2 Sides or
Clear Glass
Features
• TRUESENSE Transparent Gate Electrode
for High Sensitivity
• Ultra-High Resolution
• Board Dynamic Range
• Low Noise Architecture
• Large Active Imaging Area
Applications
• Digitization
• Mapping/Aerial
• Photography
• Scientific
Thx for the tear down Mike, always a joy
Reply
@martinalooksatthings
1 day ago
15:49 that is some great bodging on of caps, they really didn't want to respin that PCB huh
8
Reply
@RhythmGamer
1 day ago
Was depressed today and then a new mike video dropped and now I’m genuinely happy to get my tear down fix
1
Reply
@dine9093
1 day ago (edited)
Did you transfrom into Mr Blobby for a moment there?
2
Reply
@NickNorton
1 day ago
Thanks Mike. Your videos are always interesting.
5
Reply
@KeritechElectronics
1 day ago
Heavy optics indeed... Spare no expense, cost no object. Splendid build quality. The CCD is a thing of beauty!
1
Reply
@YSoreil
1 day ago
The pricing on that sensor is about right, I looked in to these many years ago when they were still in production since it's the only large sensor you could actually buy. Really cool to see one in the wild.
2
Reply
@snik2pl
1 day ago
That leds look like from led projector
Reply
@vincei4252
1 day ago
TDI = Time Domain Integration ?
1
Reply
@wolpumba4099
1 day ago (edited)
Maybe the camera should not be illuminated during readout.
From the datasheet of the sensor (Onsemi): saturation 40300 electrons, read noise 12.5 electrons per pixel @ 18MHz (quite bad). quantum efficiency 62% (if it has micro lenses), frame rate 1 Hz. lateral overflow drain to prevent blooming protects against 800x (factor increases linearly with exposure time) saturation exposure (32e6 electrons per pixel at 4ms exposure time), microlens has +/- 20 degree acceptance angle
i guess it would be good for astrophotography
4
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@txm100
1 day ago (edited)
Babe wake up a new mikeselectricstuff has dropped!
9
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@vincei4252
1 day ago
That looks like a finger-lakes filter wheel, however, for astronomy they'd never use such a large stepper.
1
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@MRooodddvvv
1 day ago
yaaaaay ! more overcomplicated optical stuff !
4
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1 reply
@NoPegs
1 day ago
He lives!
11
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1 reply
Transcript
0:00
so I've stripped all the bits of the
0:01
optical system so basically we've got
0:03
the uh the camera
0:05
itself which is mounted on this uh very
0:09
complex
0:10
adjustment thing which obviously to set
0:13
you the various tilt and uh alignment
0:15
stuff then there's two of these massive
0:18
lenses I've taken one of these apart I
0:20
think there's something like about eight
0:22
or nine Optical elements in here these
0:25
don't seem to do a great deal in terms
0:26
of electr magnification they're obiously
0:28
just about getting the image to where it
0:29
uh where it needs to be just so that
0:33
goes like that then this Optical block I
0:36
originally thought this was made of some
0:37
s crazy heavy material but it's just
0:39
really the sum of all these Optical bits
0:41
are just ridiculously heavy those lenses
0:43
are about 4 kilos each and then there's
0:45
this very heavy very solid um piece that
0:47
goes in the middle and this is so this
0:49
is the filter wheel assembly with a
0:51
hilariously oversized steper
0:53
motor driving this wheel with these very
0:57
large narrow band filters so we've got
1:00
various different shades of uh
1:03
filters there five Al together that
1:06
one's actually just showing up a silver
1:07
that's actually a a red but fairly low
1:10
transmission orangey red blue green
1:15
there's an excess cover on this side so
1:16
the filters can be accessed and changed
1:19
without taking anything else apart even
1:21
this is like ridiculous it's like solid
1:23
aluminium this is just basically a cover
1:25
the actual wavelengths of these are um
1:27
488 525 570 630 and 700 NM not sure what
1:32
the suffix on that perhaps that's the uh
1:34
the width of the spectral line say these
1:37
are very narrow band filters most of
1:39
them are you very little light through
1:41
so it's still very tight narrow band to
1:43
match the um fluoresence of the dies
1:45
they're using in the biochemical process
1:48
and obviously to reject the light that's
1:49
being fired at it from that Illuminator
1:51
box and then there's a there's a second
1:53
one of these lenses then the actual sort
1:55
of samples below that so uh very serious
1:58
amount of very uh chunky heavy Optics
2:01
okay let's take a look at this light
2:02
source made by company Lumen Dynamics
2:04
who are now part of
2:06
excelitas self-contained unit power
2:08
connector USB and this which one of the
2:11
Cable Bundle said was a TTL interface
2:14
USB wasn't used in uh the fluid
2:17
application output here and I think this
2:19
is an input for um light feedback I
2:21
don't if it's regulated or just a measur
2:23
measurement facility and the uh fiber
2:27
assembly
2:29
Square Inlet there and then there's two
2:32
outputs which have uh lens assemblies
2:35
and this small one which goes back into
2:37
that small Port just Loops out of here
2:40
straight back in So on this side we've
2:42
got the electronics which look pretty
2:44
straightforward we've got a bit of power
2:45
supply stuff over here and we've got
2:48
separate drivers for each wavelength now
2:50
interesting this is clearly been very
2:52
specifically made for this application
2:54
you I was half expecting like say some
2:56
generic drivers that could be used for a
2:58
number of different things but actually
3:00
literally specified the exact wavelength
3:02
on the PCB there is provision here for
3:04
385 NM which isn't populated but this is
3:07
clearly been designed very specifically
3:09
so these four drivers look the same but
3:10
then there's two higher power ones for
3:12
575 and
3:14
520 a slightly bigger heat sink on this
3:16
575 section there a p 24 which is
3:20
providing USB interface USB isolator the
3:23
USB interface just presents as a comport
3:26
I did have a quick look but I didn't
3:27
actually get anything sensible um I did
3:29
dump the Pi code out and there's a few
3:31
you a few sort of commands that you
3:32
could see in text but I didn't actually
3:34
manage to get it working properly I
3:36
found some software for related version
3:38
but it didn't seem to want to talk to it
3:39
but um I say that wasn't used for the
3:41
original application it might be quite
3:42
interesting to get try and get the Run
3:44
hours count out of it and the TTL
3:46
interface looks fairly straightforward
3:48
we've got positions for six opto
3:50
isolators but only five five are
3:52
installed so that corresponds with the
3:54
unused thing so I think this hopefully
3:56
should be as simple as just providing a
3:57
ttrl signal for each color to uh enable
4:00
it a big heat sink here which is there I
4:03
think there's like a big S of metal
4:04
plate through the middle of this that
4:05
all the leads are mounted on the other
4:07
side so this is heat sinking it with a
4:09
air flow from a uh just a fan in here
4:13
obviously don't have the air flow
4:14
anywhere near the Optics so conduction
4:17
cool through to this plate that's then
4:18
uh air cooled got some pots which are
4:21
presumably power
4:22
adjustments okay let's take a look at
4:24
the other side which is uh much more
4:27
interesting see we've got some uh very
4:31
uh neatly Twisted cable assemblies there
4:35
a bunch of leads so we've got one here
4:37
475 up here 430 NM 630 575 and 520
4:44
filters and dcro mirrors a quick way to
4:48
see what's white is if we just shine
4:49
some white light through
4:51
here not sure how it is is to see on the
4:54
camera but shining white light we do
4:55
actually get a bit of red a bit of blue
4:57
some yellow here so the obstacle path
5:00
575 it goes sort of here bounces off
5:03
this mirror and goes out the 520 goes
5:07
sort of down here across here and up
5:09
there 630 goes basically straight
5:13
through
5:15
430 goes across there down there along
5:17
there and the 475 goes down here and
5:20
left this is the light sensing thing
5:22
think here there's just a um I think
5:24
there a photo diode or other sensor
5:26
haven't actually taken that off and
5:28
everything's fixed down to this chunk of
5:31
aluminium which acts as the heat
5:32
spreader that then conducts the heat to
5:33
the back side for the heat
5:35
sink and the actual lead packages all
5:38
look fairly similar except for this one
5:41
on the 575 which looks quite a bit more
5:44
substantial big spay
5:46
Terminals and the interface for this
5:48
turned out to be extremely simple it's
5:50
literally a 5V TTL level to enable each
5:54
color doesn't seem to be any tensity
5:56
control but there are some additional
5:58
pins on that connector that weren't used
5:59
in the through time thing so maybe
6:01
there's some extra lines that control
6:02
that I couldn't find any data on this uh
6:05
unit and the um their current product
6:07
range is quite significantly different
6:09
so we've got the uh blue these
6:13
might may well be saturating the camera
6:16
so they might look a bit weird so that's
6:17
the 430
6:18
blue the 575
6:24
yellow uh
6:26
475 light blue
6:29
the uh 520
6:31
green and the uh 630 red now one
6:36
interesting thing I noticed for the
6:39
575 it's actually it's actually using a
6:42
white lead and then filtering it rather
6:44
than using all the other ones are using
6:46
leads which are the fundamental colors
6:47
but uh this is actually doing white and
6:50
it's a combination of this filter and
6:52
the dichroic mirrors that are turning to
6:55
Yellow if we take the filter out and a
6:57
lot of the a lot of the um blue content
7:00
is going this way the red is going
7:02
straight through these two mirrors so
7:05
this is clearly not reflecting much of
7:08
that so we end up with the yellow coming
7:10
out of uh out of there which is a fairly
7:14
light yellow color which you don't
7:16
really see from high intensity leads so
7:19
that's clearly why they've used the
7:20
white to uh do this power consumption of
7:23
the white is pretty high so going up to
7:25
about 2 and 1 half amps on that color
7:27
whereas most of the other colors are
7:28
only drawing half an amp or so at 24
7:30
volts the uh the green is up to about
7:32
1.2 but say this thing is uh much
7:35
brighter and if you actually run all the
7:38
colors at the same time you get a fairly
7:41
reasonable um looking white coming out
7:43
of it and one thing you might just be
7:45
out to notice is there is some sort
7:46
color banding around here that's not
7:49
getting uh everything s completely
7:51
concentric and I think that's where this
7:53
fiber optic thing comes
7:58
in I'll
8:00
get a couple of Fairly accurately shaped
8:04
very sort of uniform color and looking
8:06
at What's um inside here we've basically
8:09
just got this Square Rod so this is
8:12
clearly yeah the lights just bouncing
8:13
off all the all the various sides to um
8:16
get a nice uniform illumination uh this
8:19
back bit looks like it's all potted so
8:21
nothing I really do to get in there I
8:24
think this is fiber so I have come
8:26
across um cables like this which are
8:27
liquid fill but just looking through the
8:30
end of this it's probably a bit hard to
8:31
see it does look like there fiber ends
8:34
going going on there and so there's this
8:36
feedback thing which is just obviously
8:39
compensating for the any light losses
8:41
through here to get an accurate
8:43
representation of uh the light that's
8:45
been launched out of these two
8:47
fibers and you see uh
8:49
these have got this sort of trapezium
8:54
shape light guides again it's like a
8:56
sort of acrylic or glass light guide
9:00
guess projected just to make the right
9:03
rectangular
9:04
shape and look at this Center assembly
9:07
um the light output doesn't uh change
9:10
whether you feed this in or not so it's
9:11
clear not doing any internal Clos Loop
9:14
control obviously there may well be some
9:16
facility for it to do that but it's not
9:17
being used in this
9:19
application and so this output just
9:21
produces a voltage on the uh outle
9:24
connector proportional to the amount of
9:26
light that's present so there's a little
9:28
diffuser in the back there
9:30
and then there's just some kind of uh
9:33
Optical sensor looks like a
9:35
chip looking at the lead it's a very
9:37
small package on the PCB with this lens
9:40
assembly over the top and these look
9:43
like they're actually on a copper
9:44
Metalized PCB for maximum thermal
9:47
performance and yeah it's a very small
9:49
package looks like it's a ceramic
9:51
package and there's a thermister there
9:53
for temperature monitoring this is the
9:56
475 blue one this is the 520 need to
9:59
Green which is uh rather different OB
10:02
it's a much bigger D with lots of bond
10:04
wise but also this looks like it's using
10:05
a phosphor if I shine a blue light at it
10:08
lights up green so this is actually a
10:10
phosphor conversion green lead which
10:12
I've I've come across before they want
10:15
that specific wavelength so they may be
10:17
easier to tune a phosphor than tune the
10:20
um semiconductor material to get the uh
10:23
right right wavelength from the lead
10:24
directly uh red 630 similar size to the
10:28
blue one or does seem to have a uh a
10:31
lens on top of it there is a sort of red
10:33
coloring to
10:35
the die but that doesn't appear to be
10:38
fluorescent as far as I can
10:39
tell and the white one again a little
10:41
bit different sort of much higher
10:43
current
10:46
connectors a makeer name on that
10:48
connector flot light not sure if that's
10:52
the connector or the lead
10:54
itself and obviously with the phosphor
10:56
and I'd imagine that phosphor may well
10:58
be tuned to get the maximum to the uh 5
11:01
cenm and actually this white one looks
11:04
like a St fairly standard product I just
11:06
found it in Mouse made by luminous
11:09
devices in fact actually I think all
11:11
these are based on various luminous
11:13
devices modules and they're you take
11:17
looks like they taking the nearest
11:18
wavelength and then just using these
11:19
filters to clean it up to get a precise
11:22
uh spectral line out of it so quite a
11:25
nice neat and um extreme
11:30
bright light source uh sure I've got any
11:33
particular use for it so I think this
11:35
might end up on
11:36
eBay but uh very pretty to look out and
11:40
without the uh risk of burning your eyes
11:43
out like you do with lasers so I thought
11:45
it would be interesting to try and
11:46
figure out the runtime of this things
11:48
like this we usually keep some sort
11:49
record of runtime cuz leads degrade over
11:51
time I couldn't get any software to work
11:52
through the USB face but then had a
11:54
thought probably going to be writing the
11:55
runtime periodically to the e s prom so
11:58
I just just scope up that and noticed it
12:00
was doing right every 5 minutes so I
12:02
just ran it for a while periodically
12:04
reading the E squ I just held the pick
12:05
in in reset and um put clip over to read
12:07
the square prom and found it was writing
12:10
one location per color every 5 minutes
12:12
so if one color was on it would write
12:14
that location every 5 minutes and just
12:16
increment it by one so after doing a few
12:18
tests with different colors of different
12:19
time periods it looked extremely
12:21
straightforward it's like a four bite
12:22
count for each color looking at the
12:24
original data that was in it all the
12:26
colors apart from Green were reading
12:28
zero and the green was reading four
12:30
indicating a total 20 minutes run time
12:32
ever if it was turned on run for a short
12:34
time then turned off that might not have
12:36
been counted but even so indicates this
12:37
thing wasn't used a great deal the whole
12:40
s process of doing a run can be several
12:42
hours but it'll only be doing probably
12:43
the Imaging at the end of that so you
12:46
wouldn't expect to be running for a long
12:47
time but say a single color for 20
12:50
minutes over its whole lifetime does
12:52
seem a little bit on the low side okay
12:55
let's look at the camera un fortunately
12:57
I managed to not record any sound when I
12:58
did this it's also a couple of months
13:00
ago so there's going to be a few details
13:02
that I've forgotten so I'm just going to
13:04
dub this over the original footage so um
13:07
take the lid off see this massive great
13:10
heat sink so this is a pel cool camera
13:12
we've got this blower fan producing a
13:14
fair amount of air flow through
13:16
it the connector here there's the ccds
13:19
mounted on the board on the
13:24
right this unplugs so we've got a bit of
13:27
power supply stuff on here
13:29
USB interface I think that's the Cyprus
13:32
microcontroller High speeded USB
13:34
interface there's a zyink spon fpga some
13:40
RAM and there's a couple of ATD
13:42
converters can't quite read what those
13:45
those are but anal
13:47
devices um little bit of bodgery around
13:51
here extra decoupling obviously they
13:53
have having some noise issues this is
13:55
around the ram chip quite a lot of extra
13:57
capacitors been added there
13:59
uh there's a couple of amplifiers prior
14:01
to the HD converter buffers or Andor
14:05
amplifiers taking the CCD
14:08
signal um bit more power spy stuff here
14:11
this is probably all to do with
14:12
generating the various CCD bias voltages
14:14
they uh need quite a lot of exotic
14:18
voltages next board down is just a
14:20
shield and an interconnect
14:24
boardly shielding the power supply stuff
14:26
from some the more sensitive an log
14:28
stuff
14:31
and this is the bottom board which is
14:32
just all power supply
14:34
stuff as you can see tons of capacitors
14:37
or Transformer in
14:42
there and this is the CCD which is a uh
14:47
very impressive thing this is a kf50 100
14:50
originally by true sense then codec
14:53
there ON
14:54
Semiconductor it's 50 megapixels uh the
14:58
only price I could find was this one
15:00
5,000 bucks and the architecture you can
15:03
see there actually two separate halves
15:04
which explains the Dual AZ converters
15:06
and two amplifiers it's literally split
15:08
down the middle and duplicated so it's
15:10
outputting two streams in parallel just
15:13
to keep the bandwidth sensible and it's
15:15
got this amazing um diffraction effects
15:18
it's got micro lenses over the pixel so
15:20
there's there's a bit more Optics going
15:22
on than on a normal
15:25
sensor few more bodges on the CCD board
15:28
including this wire which isn't really
15:29
tacked down very well which is a bit uh
15:32
bit of a mess quite a few bits around
15:34
this board where they've uh tacked
15:36
various bits on which is not super
15:38
impressive looks like CCD drivers on the
15:40
left with those 3 ohm um damping
15:43
resistors on the
15:47
output get a few more little bodges
15:50
around here some of
15:52
the and there's this separator the
15:54
silica gel to keep the moisture down but
15:56
there's this separator that actually
15:58
appears to be cut from piece of
15:59
antistatic
16:04
bag and this sort of thermal block on
16:06
top of this stack of three pel Cola
16:12
modules so as with any Stacks they get
16:16
um larger as they go back towards the
16:18
heat sink because each P's got to not
16:20
only take the heat from the previous but
16:21
also the waste heat which is quite
16:27
significant you see a little temperature
16:29
sensor here that copper block which
16:32
makes contact with the back of the
16:37
CCD and this's the back of the
16:40
pelas this then contacts the heat sink
16:44
on the uh rear there a few thermal pads
16:46
as well for some of the other power
16:47
components on this
16:51
PCB okay I've connected this uh camera
16:54
up I found some drivers on the disc that
16:56
seem to work under Windows 7 couldn't
16:58
get to install under Windows 11 though
17:01
um in the absence of any sort of lens or
17:03
being bothered to the proper amount I've
17:04
just put some f over it and put a little
17:06
pin in there to make a pinhole lens and
17:08
software gives a few options I'm not
17:11
entirely sure what all these are there's
17:12
obviously a clock frequency 22 MHz low
17:15
gain and with PFG no idea what that is
17:19
something something game programmable
17:20
Something game perhaps ver exposure
17:23
types I think focus is just like a
17:25
continuous grab until you tell it to
17:27
stop not entirely sure all these options
17:30
are obviously exposure time uh triggers
17:33
there ex external hardware trigger inut
17:35
you just trigger using a um thing on
17:37
screen so the resolution is 8176 by
17:40
6132 and you can actually bin those
17:42
where you combine multiple pixels to get
17:46
increased gain at the expense of lower
17:48
resolution down this is a 10sec exposure
17:51
obviously of the pin hole it's very uh
17:53
intensitive so we just stand still now
17:56
downloading it there's the uh exposure
17:59
so when it's
18:01
um there's a little status thing down
18:03
here so that tells you the um exposure
18:07
[Applause]
18:09
time it's this is just it
18:15
downloading um it is quite I'm seeing
18:18
quite a lot like smearing I think that I
18:20
don't know whether that's just due to
18:21
pixels overloading or something else I
18:24
mean yeah it's not it's not um out of
18:26
the question that there's something not
18:27
totally right about this camera
18:28
certainly was bodge wise on there um I
18:31
don't I'd imagine a camera like this
18:32
it's got a fairly narrow range of
18:34
intensities that it's happy with I'm not
18:36
going to spend a great deal of time on
18:38
this if you're interested in this camera
18:40
maybe for astronomy or something and
18:42
happy to sort of take the risk of it may
18:44
not be uh perfect I'll um I think I'll
18:47
stick this on eBay along with the
18:48
Illuminator I'll put a link down in the
18:50
description to the listing take your
18:52
chances to grab a bargain so for example
18:54
here we see this vertical streaking so
18:56
I'm not sure how normal that is this is
18:58
on fairly bright scene looking out the
19:02
window if I cut the exposure time down
19:04
on that it's now 1 second
19:07
exposure again most of the image
19:09
disappears again this is looks like it's
19:11
possibly over still overloading here go
19:14
that go down to say say quarter a
19:16
second so again I think there might be
19:19
some Auto gain control going on here um
19:21
this is with the PFG option let's try
19:23
turning that off and see what
19:25
happens so I'm not sure this is actually
19:27
more streaking or which just it's
19:29
cranked up the gain all the dis display
19:31
gray scale to show what um you know the
19:33
range of things that it's captured
19:36
there's one of one of 12 things in the
19:38
software there's um you can see of you
19:40
can't seem to read out the temperature
19:42
of the pelta cooler but you can set the
19:44
temperature and if you said it's a
19:46
different temperature you see the power
19:48
consumption jump up running the cooler
19:50
to get the temperature you requested but
19:52
I can't see anything anywhere that tells
19:54
you whether the cool is at the at the
19:56
temperature other than the power
19:57
consumption going down and there's no
19:59
temperature read out
20:03
here and just some yeah this is just
20:05
sort of very basic software I'm sure
20:07
there's like an API for more
20:09
sophisticated
20:10
applications but so if you know anything
20:12
more about these cameras please um stick
20:14
in the
20:15
comments um incidentally when I was
20:18
editing I didn't notice there was a bent
20:19
pin on the um CCD but I did fix that
20:22
before doing these tests and also
20:24
reactivated the um silica gel desicant
20:26
cuz I noticed it was uh I was getting
20:28
bit of condensation on the window but um
20:31
yeah so a couple of uh interesting but
20:34
maybe not particularly uh useful pieces
20:37
of Kit except for someone that's got a
20:38
very specific use so um I'll stick a
20:42
I'll stick these on eBay put a link in
20:44
the description and say hopefully
20:45
someone could actually make some uh good
20:47
use of these things
Example Output:
**Abstract:**
This video presents Part 2 of a teardown focusing on the optical components of a Fluidigm Polaris biotechnology instrument, specifically the multi-wavelength illuminator and the high-resolution CCD camera.
The Lumen Dynamics illuminator unit is examined in detail, revealing its construction using multiple high-power LEDs (430nm, 475nm, 520nm, 575nm, 630nm) combined via dichroic mirrors and filters. A square fiber optic rod is used to homogenize the light. A notable finding is the use of a phosphor-converted white LED filtered to achieve the 575nm output. The unit features simple TTL activation for each color, conduction cooling, and internal homogenization optics. Analysis of its EEPROM suggests extremely low operational runtime.
The camera module teardown showcases a 50 Megapixel ON Semiconductor KAF-50100 CCD sensor with micro-lenses, cooled by a multi-stage Peltier stack. The control electronics include an FPGA and a USB interface. Significant post-manufacturing modifications ("bodges") are observed on the camera's circuit boards. Basic functional testing using vendor software and a pinhole lens confirms image capture but reveals prominent vertical streaking artifacts, the cause of which remains uncertain (potential overload, readout artifact, or fault).
**Exploring the Fluidigm Polaris: A Detailed Look at its High-End Optics and Camera System**
* **0:00 High-End Optics:** The system utilizes heavy, high-quality lenses and mirrors for precise imaging, weighing around 4 kilos each.
* **0:49 Narrow Band Filters:** A filter wheel with five narrow band filters (488, 525, 570, 630, and 700 nm) ensures accurate fluorescence detection and rejection of excitation light.
* **2:01 Customizable Illumination:** The Lumen Dynamics light source offers five individually controllable LED wavelengths (430, 475, 520, 575, 630 nm) with varying power outputs. The 575nm yellow LED is uniquely achieved using a white LED with filtering.
* **3:45 TTL Control:** The light source is controlled via a simple TTL interface, enabling easy on/off switching for each LED color.
* **12:55 Sophisticated Camera:** The system includes a 50-megapixel Kodak KAI-50100 CCD camera with a Peltier cooling system for reduced noise.
* **14:54 High-Speed Data Transfer:** The camera features dual analog-to-digital converters to manage the high data throughput of the 50-megapixel sensor, which is effectively two 25-megapixel sensors operating in parallel.
* **18:11 Possible Issues:** The video creator noted some potential issues with the camera, including image smearing.
* **18:11 Limited Dynamic Range:** The camera's sensor has a limited dynamic range, making it potentially challenging to capture scenes with a wide range of brightness levels.
* **11:45 Low Runtime:** Internal data suggests the system has seen minimal usage, with only 20 minutes of recorded runtime for the green LED.
* **20:38 Availability on eBay:** Both the illuminator and camera are expected to be listed for sale on eBay.
Here is the real transcript. What would be a good group of people to review this topic? Please summarize provide a summary like they would:
Hair on Our Faces | Dr. Barnaby Dixson | Species Podcast
Macken Murphy
68.7K subscribers
2,448 views Nov 1, 2023 Species Podcast
Today, we explore the befuddling (and surprisingly complex) mystery of the human beard. Our guide is Dr. Barnaby Dixson, a human behavioral ecologist at the University of the Sunshine Coast who uses interdisciplinary methods to investigate human mate preferences across cultures. His extensive work has bettered our understanding of a wide variety of physical traits; most relevant to today's discussion, he is one of the primary contributors to our understanding of beards. We discuss the evolution of facial masculinity and facial hair, and their role in attractiveness and intimidation across various contexts. You can learn more about Dixson, here: https://www.usc.edu.au/staff/dr-barna...
Relevant sources are mostly in Dixson’s past publications: https://scholar.google.com.au/citatio...
But also, see: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1v...
#beard #psychology #speciespodcast
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@BlackJesusChrist666
1 year ago
U just jelly bout my beard 😂 Incredibly interesting conversation. Subbed!
2
@Thereelswiftie
1 year ago
It’s funny to listen to people who aren’t attracted to men talk about this because if you’re attracted to men so much of this feels very intuitive
3
Macken Murphy
·
@MoralGovernment
2 years ago
I made my husband grow a beard. I love it. But if a man can't grow a proper beard and it's patchy, you better shave it because that's awful.
6
@Thereelswiftie
1 year ago
As a straight woman, the whole time I was listening to this I was just thinking about how I associate bearded men with masculine features as less promiscuous. I was not surprised at all by their point at the end that beards are associated with paternal quality
4
@dantan1249
1 year ago
Could be about survivability. Facial hair has been associated with less trustworthiness. Maybe it just makes people more wary/scared of you. You get a bit further when no one tests you.
@dantan1249
1 year ago
Also has the average age of reproducing/mating been compared with the average age of actually having a full beard? I would imagine that most people in history reproduced at high school or college age. My beard didn’t solidify till late 20s
@chaosevolution
1 year ago
Beard: represents maturation, status, power, high testosterone, greater intellect, aggression, dominance.
@JJ-nl4hm
1 year ago
I don't know the veracity of this however I've heard jawline is highly dependent on exposure to stimulus (chewy foods) on the mandible muscular skeletal system in adolescent development. From an ancestral standpoint that could be meat perhaps facial hair evolved to hide a poor childhood diet or that a male comes from a line of bad hunters.
2
@mznxbcv12345
1 year ago (edited)
Why talk about a peacock's tail? it is completley irrelevant, avians need to attract females, primates do not attract females as they are confined within a fixed locality, unlike the aforementioned, a much more appropriate example is a Lion's mane, primarily for scaring off other male lions, infact Females do not play a part in selection in primates at all.
2
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Transcript
0:00
Darwin said the sight of a peacock's tail made him sick if as he had theorized Nature's
0:07
present forms were the result of generations of lethal whittling right generations of less survivable forms
0:14
dying out leaving the most survivable forms to propagate then why would an animal's
0:20
present form retain a flamboyantly impractical
0:26
trait having an enormous partially iridescent blue and green wedding train
0:34
permanently attached to your body just doesn't seem to be the sort of thing that would help you
0:42
survive if anything would hurt you right by wasting energy on its development and maintenance by interfering with flight
0:48
by acting as simultaneously a bug Light and a grab handle for Predators it seems
0:55
to be the exact sort of thing natural selection would select
1:02
out this is what made Darwin nauseous this was a stuck out tongue at
1:08
his theory of natural selection How could a tail like that
1:16
evolve well it wasn't so clear then but today everyone seems to more or less
1:22
agree that the reason the peacon tail evolved is because pens like it of course there's a further debate to
1:30
be had as to why pens like it and some of this is worth being familiar with
1:37
theoretically maybe the tals themselves are actually an honest sign of Fitness
1:42
right maybe it shows off the capacity to acquire excess nutrients and or resist
1:47
pathogens and disease and or survive despite the burden of such an ornament
1:53
it's a pretty impressive thing to grow you'd have to be pretty healthy and capable to grow it so for the same
2:00
reason a Lamborghini is an honest signal of excess wealth maybe the peacock's
2:06
tail shows off excess health and so it's attractive this is zahav's handicap
2:13
principal and The Descendant Hamilton Zuck hypothesis and maybe in a
2:18
non-competitive way the peacock's taale results from Runaway selection perhaps
2:23
on a pre-existing bias right maybe before the tales even evolved the pens
2:29
already were disposed to like flashy tails for some totally arbitrary reason
2:34
right i' I've seen some suggest that the taals look like berry bushes which pens might well already have evolved to be
2:41
into the look of for the same reason any of us like the look of food or maybe there was a reason to like
2:48
such taals that was initially adaptive right initially related to Fitness maybe a longer tail actually was useful at
2:55
first and so preferring the males with longer tails made sense initially whatever the reason though so
3:03
long as there was a pre-existing preference if a male happened to have a
3:08
flashier tail they'd have passed on more jees and in doing so those males surely
3:14
would have passed on both the genes for flashy tals which they had and the genes
3:19
for the desire for flashy tals right from the female who desired him and reproduced with them and so the more
3:26
tals became flashy the more flash itself became desirable starting a cycle of
3:33
self-perpetuating growth that led to the tale we see today basically a handsome guy is likely
3:41
to have daughters who like handsome guys because their mother is a woman who chose a handsome guy this is the basic
3:49
concept of fisherian runaway with some input from
3:54
Dawkins and maybe as part of any of these or even another process unmentioned females became
4:01
evolutionarily incentivized to choose males with flamboyant Tails because that
4:06
would give their sons flamboyant tals which would give their sons more access to mates which would then place even
4:13
greater incentive on females to like flamboyant Tales basically the circular sounding
4:21
but actually robust logic of marry the handsome guy because his sons will be
4:26
handsome and handsome guys have an easy time getting married this is The
4:32
Virtuous cycle known as the sexy sun
4:37
hypothesis and today most of us are more or less satisfied that some blend of the
4:42
ideas I've reviewed since I started making noises from your phone a few minutes ago some blend of these ideas
4:48
more or less works the sight of a beard makes me sick
4:55
and not just because I can't grow a particularly good one blondes seem to have an inherent disadvantage in this domain but because they are far more
5:03
confusing than the peacock's tail first let's just wake up to the
5:09
idea that beards are a weird trait there's nothing normal in our Cade about
5:15
a very hairy mouth look up our three closest relatives chimpanzees bonobos
5:20
gorillas we're the odd cousin and a full beard is a rather ostentatious thing to
5:27
have coming out of your face it's at once impractical and Visually
5:32
spectacular I mean you're used to it as a human but just imagine how absurd a squirrel or a deer or a kangaroo would
5:41
look with a big bushy beard and imagine how much more
5:46
ridiculous if it was one of the only places they had visible hair long thick
5:53
hair concentrated around the lips is objectively hard to explain it's
5:59
impractical or seemingly impractical it's flashy it's costly the same
6:05
sickening problems of the peacock's tail can be found right under our
6:12
noses but the solutions to these problems posed aren't as easily
6:19
translated of course some people do think the analogy runs through right
6:24
beards are just to attract mates it's just to make males look good through flam buoyant
6:31
impracticality but I have some memories that make me at a personal level quite skeptical of these narratives for
6:37
instance my dad grew out a perfectly serviceable beard thick well lined up I thought it looked great and I watched my
6:43
mother beg him to shave it daily until he relented and if I show up to my
6:49
girlfriend's place with anything more than stubble I'm greeted at the door with a razor now I'm not closing the door to
6:57
sexy beard theories you'll hear all about the research on beards and attractiveness in just a few minutes and
7:02
obviously many individual women adore beards but could you imagine a peen
7:11
wanting her peacock mate to pluck his feathers surely someone has spent enough
7:19
time thinking about this to tell us what's going on here today I'm going to talk to someone
7:26
who has spent about 15 years thinking about beards Dr Barnaby Dixon is a human
7:33
behavioral ecologist a researcher and lecturer at USC who uses interdisciplinary methods to investigate
7:39
human mate preferences and competition his extensive cross-cultural work has
7:45
bettered our understanding of a wide variety of physical traits everything from women's body ratios to men's body
7:51
hair has crossed his desk but today we're going to be focused mostly on men and mostly above the
7:57
shoulders thank you to to the donors at Mack murphy. org for sending Barnaby a
8:02
microphone and for funding all of our hosting and software today we talk about beards to a lesser extent facial
8:09
masculinity and the impact of both of these traits on attracting mates and repelling Rivals across contests fair
8:17
warning this is a surprisingly dense forest to walk into scientifically but
8:23
Barnaby is the perfect guide to have on this sort of Adventure enjoy
8:34
I guess The Upfront thing to notice is that dimorphism right this this difference between males and females is
8:41
an indicator of male male competition to begin with and what we're talking about today is our most dimorphic trait uh
8:49
certainly our most dimorphic visual trait I don't know if there's a way to quantify uh the difference in vocal
8:54
depth between males and females but certainly from a visual perspective there's nothing quite as uh there's
9:01
nothing quite as striking as the hairy faces that that so many men have and
9:06
there's two sides to the to the you know sexual competition landscape and maybe there's
9:13
maybe there's more than two maybe I'm not thinking clearly enough right now but there's certainly competition to
9:20
attract right and then there's also competition to repel so there's there's
9:25
there's competition to attract other you know mates of the opposite sex and then there's competition to to ward off
9:32
rivals or in some cases you know actually use those ornaments as Weaponry right there maybe ornaments is a bad
9:38
word for them I guess as a as just a starting question on the topic do women
9:43
in general like beards right does facial hair make us more attractive or what's going on there right yeah that's a
9:51
totally valid question and that's pretty much where I started with with the research I I assumed as you you pointed
9:57
out like this is something that defines visually masculinity in the most obvious
10:02
and easily processible way so surely it must be some kind of Badge of uh
10:08
masculinity that enhances attractiveness to heterosexual women and the reality is
10:14
I mean I've lost count of how many studies i' I've done and and the other folks in in this area have done if I was
10:21
to guess I would say you could probably split it down the middle and say 50/50 in terms of are are women preferring
10:29
facial hair on um you know the faces of anonymous um individuals that they're
10:34
rating in these studies uh and the other 50% will say not really and that first
10:42
50% will say yeah they're somewhat more attractive than than clean shaven guys
10:47
and and that seems to be the pattern across the literature so then I suppose
10:53
what what you do if that's the case is you say well that's interesting first of all you know something isn't just going
11:00
in One Direction so perhaps we can find the sources of variation like what's
11:06
what's explaining that variation among heterosexual women and that's kind of
11:12
the next part that I went on to so I began with a study looking at Women's
11:17
preferences for facial hair in New Zealand where I was doing my PhD at the time and uh Samoa where I was doing my
11:24
field research and in that study you know there was some differences in the magnitude of the preference but the the
11:33
crosscultural agreement was that clean shaven faces were more attractive than than a full bearded faces and I thought
11:39
well that's kind of an answer to it but then I looked across the literature during writing up the paper and thought
11:44
ah well actually my study is just contributing to that kind of split in in what we know already that there's
11:50
variation and these two disparate cultures for whatever reason uh they
11:55
agreed and I could have just left it there but I thought no there's probably more to
12:00
this and so what I did was I looked at some what you would call
12:06
individual differences to see whether or not they uh predict or determine women's
12:11
preferences for men's facial hair and I added an extra level to it which speaks to what you were just uh discussing
12:17
which is look you know the facial hair it's groomed and contoured to to fit
12:23
around the face right so you know you might actually not require a very very
12:29
big Shaggy beard you might actually require and I mean require in terms of culturally at that time it might be more
12:37
uh aesthetically pleasing for whatever reason again to have some form of thick stubble that gives you a facial shape
12:43
that's more masculine in by using this ornament and so I included in that study
12:49
faces that I'd photographed with five days of stubble and 10 days of stubble
12:56
as well as that eight weeks of full un trimmed beard and then completely clean shaven the day of the photograph so what
13:04
that found what I found with that one was again a sample of New Zealand women this time a different sample that I
13:10
collected that there's a nonlinear preference so clean shaven and light
13:17
stubble were pretty even and then it was that thick stubble look which was 10
13:22
days um as being the most attractive and beardedness full beardedness being
13:28
pretty much equal to equal to or slightly below that of the clean shaven
13:33
face so it seems like having the ability to grow facial hair and have it um match
13:40
the Contours of the facial structure that you would consider to be typically male or masculine that jawline and
13:46
framing the the rest of the face was what was attractive rather than having this perhaps unkempt looking full full
13:54
bushy beard that's fascinating and I can I can almost hear you know evolutionary
13:59
psychologists uh shuddering to realize that you know the the most attractive version of this ornament is the one that
14:05
doesn't appear in nature obviously some men can't grow facial hair um and the ones that do would naturally grow quite
14:11
a lot of it uh but 5ay 5day stubble you really do need uh a cultural
14:16
intervention to create that I suppose one thing that it's worth just flagging for the audience here is that already I
14:23
mean there there's clearly a there's clearly a sexual selection and attractiveness story to be told here
14:29
right there's something to do with attraction happening but already the the peacock analogy is looking a little
14:36
unclean I mean this is this is I to be equivalent it would be like surve if we
14:42
could survey peens and find that you know half of them kind of like it and
14:47
half of them kind of don't no one really has too much strong feelings and most of them you know most of them prefer
14:53
peacocks who trim their feathers to a certain length like that's that's a that would be a really peculiar result that
14:59
were that that that wouldn't really match the prototypical sexually selected ornamental display I I guess I want to
15:07
get more into the variation work and you know I i' I've I've looked at a lot of your work on this and I don't think
15:12
we're going to be able to get into it too much um so I'm apologizing for another big question what are what are
15:20
some of the conditions right and you can start wherever you want here because I recognize again there's there's probably about a dozen things you could talk
15:25
about what are the conditions where beards are more or less attractive and
15:31
hopefully along the way if you could just share some of the theoretical reasons why that might make sense so so
15:38
I've seen you know you've worked a little bit on on frequency dependence on on menopause uh on on ovulation on you
15:45
know mating intent individual mate value population density right all these different things have come up uh if you
15:52
could pick any of those and just kind of share you know strong predictors of variation and preferences for beards
15:58
give us an idea of the effect size then also some of the underlying theory that would be that would be awesome yeah no
16:03
absolutely and um really when I I kind of I I fell backwards into this topic it
16:10
wasn't what my PhD was originally on and I just kind of sat there and thought I remember sitting doing my first postto
16:17
and thinking well there's just this list of hypotheses that I can test now and see whether or not this is going on and
16:23
what makes it so interesting is that it is something that's under cultural control right you're biologically
16:30
determined genetically and and hormonally as to whether you can grow facial hair but then culture takes a
16:36
hold and can cause all kinds of different preferences to to change over
16:41
time within regions across countries so I kind of Drew up a hit list of hypotheses um from evolutionary
16:48
psychology and from behavioral ecology and thought well this is what I'm going to do and dedicate time to doing and one
16:56
of the first ones was was looking at big differences among um women as a function
17:03
of their reproductive status so are they postmenopausal are they currently
17:08
pregnant and comparing across the groups and postmenopausal women gave higher ratings than other groups and first it's
17:15
kind of confusing right because one of the hypotheses is that facial hair should at least signal sexual maturity
17:23
and therefore viability as a mate so why would it be so important for um
17:29
older women who are postmenopausal and not going to have any more children to to find this characteristic particularly
17:34
attractive and I kind of had to come down the the side of well the faces of the guys that I was showing them were
17:41
probably you know old enough yet mid 20s to 30s to be perhaps their daughter's
17:47
husband or boyfriend or maybe even their grandchildren so I kind of had to realize that it may have been a function
17:54
of the the stimula used but the main point there is that again reproductively capable women and women currently
18:01
carrying a child were not particularly uh drawn to facial hair as a sexually
18:06
attractive trait although they did rate that thick stubble again as as more attractive than clean shaven so then I
18:13
got into the evolutionary psychology literature and at the time there was this Theory called the ovulatory shift
18:19
hypothesis and it's still around it's uh Randy Thornhill who's an entomologist by
18:25
training and Steve gangestad um who's a evolutionary psychologist both are
18:30
distinguished professors at the University of New Mexico and they really pushed this hypothesis for a long time
18:36
it's still around today but as I'll point out some of the fundamental claims have been questioned at least with
18:42
regards for preference functions you might call them uh towards masculine traits and I of course picked facial
18:49
hair so the theory is that women bypass the costs of selecting a a perhaps less
18:56
investing masculine looking male uh when the the benefits could be reaped so if
19:01
you're more fertile in the middle of your cycle middle of your cycle the per ovulatory phase of your your cycle then
19:08
perhaps there's a peak in your sexual preferences towards cues of viability um
19:14
and facial masculinity facial hair deeper voices muscularity height and so
19:19
forth um masculine odors as well so I did the work on the facial hair and none
19:26
of it was revealing anything of of note with regards big shifts in fertility and
19:32
I did this you know using uh the less ideal questionnaires then I did the
19:38
actual hormone research where we validated um lutenizing hormone and then
19:44
looked at individual differences in estral and progesterone this was with Dr Candice Blake at um University of
19:51
Melbourne and also with Professor Rob Brooks as well at unsw and a few others
19:57
Prof Tom Den as well was involved so it's a team of us and there it's a lot of work and you know I was very lucky to
20:04
work with these people but essentially ended up publishing three or four null
20:09
findings um so I can fairly confidently say that there's no ovulatory shift that
20:15
explains variation in women's preferences for for men's facial hair um
20:22
the next one I looked at was the um parasite stress hypothesis which is that
20:29
it comes from zahavi and zahav's handicap hypothesis and then um the
20:35
Hamilton zook Parasite Hypothesis in evolutionary biology which is that if
20:40
your sexually selected ornament also harbers High degrees of parasites and
20:46
pathogens then only those high quality males can uh withstand the cost of that
20:52
and display the the ornament fully in order to advertise their underlying
20:57
genetic quality and this fits to some degree with facial hair because of course it could Harbor any number of
21:05
ecto parasites you know bugs and things that could really be quite harmful especially ancestrally as tends to be
21:11
the way that evolutionary psychologists will speak ancestrally speaking before Technologies like shaving and think
21:19
about the term clean shaven we're clean removed of parasites so I was like well
21:25
uh that might work here and I did some I did a quirky study um where I showed
21:32
participants pictures of you know the standard things that induce disgust
21:37
responses to pathogens which are open SS and you know buckets of liquid that
21:43
looks kind of like vomit and faces that look all spotty and unhealthy and pale
21:49
um and so I use those but I also included in it um pictures of bugs that
21:54
were crawling on the skin and digging into the skin and attaching to hair to to kind of prime participants to think
22:01
about you know those ectoparasites that could be living within patches of hair
22:06
on on the male body and so I primed them uh to that with a visual stimula that
22:12
had been validated in previous research the term quirky did not prepare me for what you were about to say but please
22:19
continue it's a quirky one for sure but you know to me it made sense at the time
22:24
and I and I yeah it's not not a not a bad attempt lead to Prime for for specific pathogen discussed as it
22:32
relates to hair and but the result was completely null I mean I couldn't have had a clearer null finding if ID wanted
22:39
it and I I obviously didn't I was thinking oh this will be a great paper I could show something really unusual here
22:45
that's underpinning sexual preferences for for facial hair but it was completely null before and after the
22:50
prime beards were just as attractive and I looked at individual differences in
22:56
pathogen discussed and that wasn't n't a predictor either so I used the Tyber 3 domain discuss scale for those listening
23:03
that are interested in you know psych and evolutionary psych it's a very well
23:09
uh well-used questionnaire and it's predicted a whole bunch of things from sociopolitical values all the way
23:14
through to make preferences for facial masculinity it just didn't didn't predict preferences for facial hair so I
23:23
kind of ticked that one off my list I did follow up and do another replication of thoughts and it it was equally
23:30
underwhelming with regards pathogens predicting preferences so then I moved
23:36
on to ask other questions surrounding when and why facial hair occurs more
23:42
often and I was working with Prof Rob Brooks at the time at unw and in um
23:50
animal ecologists and evolutionary ecologists and quantitative geneticists like like Rob's background was at the
23:57
time when I worked with him that was very much his staple he was working with these fish guppy fish and looking at
24:04
their color patterns and the males uh have these ornamentation of color
24:09
pattern that the females don't have at all it's y linked so it's heritable on the Y chromosome and it's involved in in
24:17
mate choice but there's massive variation in male guppies and the kind of coloration they have and so he and
24:24
others were working on whether or not it's a frequency dependence effect so is there an advantage to Rarity is or
24:32
novelty if one male comes along with a different color pattern relative to his
24:37
conp specifics that he's swimming around with if you like then perhaps he he enjoys an advantage in um attractiveness
24:45
to females and of course in that species of Guppies they females make multiply
24:50
right so they can pick different males it's it's part of their mating system and that's been a well studied uh
24:58
phenomenon in Guppies that in fact there is this negative frequency dependence and advantage to Rarity in color
25:04
patterns uh via female choice and so me and Rob were talking about studies to do
25:10
together and that was one that came up and it's interesting because there's some evidence um from the literature the
25:17
historical literature that would suggest that there is frequency dependence so a paper by a sociologist called Robinson
25:23
in the mid 1970s looked at facial hair Pat among uh
25:29
men who were announcing their marriage in a now completely defunct magazine called The Illustrated London news and
25:36
this is quite a prestigious thing right so not every Joe Schmo can come along and put their name in The Illustrated
25:42
London news and tell everybody they're getting married or that announcing that they're now engaged so it in some way it
25:49
was good it controlled for high status or people so these were you know kind of people who were influential at the time
25:57
politic itions and so forth and Robinson went through 150 plus years of uh data
26:05
on looking at the photographs that they uploaded or uploaded my apologies put in
26:10
this newspaper showing the times we live in it was actually a printed newspaper back then and he scored the facial hair
26:18
and what he noticed was um and I don't know if this was his intention at the time but he noticed that each individual
26:26
facial hairstyle had distinct Peaks and troughs so for instance things like
26:32
mutton chops just those big sideburns were really big in the mid 1800s and then they just dropped off to be
26:38
replaced by another style let's say perhaps uh mutton chops connecting with
26:43
a full beard and then that'll drop off and uh mustache will come in and then
26:49
clean shaving has come in and they would each enjoy a period of say 5 to 10 years
26:54
or so where everyone was copying and then everyone started to drop off and
26:59
then another style would come in and and supersede it so classically negative
27:04
frequency dependent selection and Rob and I were just talking about experiments to do and we thought well I
27:10
wonder if we can show this positively so we came up with an experiment where we
27:16
showed three different distributions of facial hair to three different sets of uh heterosexual women doing the rating
27:23
and heterosexual men as well just to have the sex es in there and there were
27:29
three conditions 500 or so participants in each condition and the first condition was participants just saw uh
27:37
24 25 if I remember rightly faces of just men with full beards in the second
27:44
experiment second condition sorry another set of participants saw 25 guys that were all clean shaven and the third
27:52
condition they saw a mixture of clean shaven stubble and beard so that kind of
27:58
random mixed population irrespective of what condition they were assigned to all
28:03
participants rated the same set of faces at the end and there was no distinguishing the faces set set at the
28:10
end compared to the condition it was just a group of faces that came up at the end and so participants were just
28:15
carrying on to rate as if nothing else was going on but it was part of the experimental design and we looked at
28:21
those I think it was three three males presented in um shaven light stubble
28:29
heavy stubble and full beards and the condition to which they were assigned that varied the frequency of facial hair
28:36
determined how attractive the different levels of facial hair in that final set of images were so that people who just
28:43
saw full beards actually rated the clean shaving guys in the final set as far
28:49
more attractive than the the full bearded guys and the complete opposite happened when you look at the uh faces
28:56
where they just saw all clean shaven faces at the beginning and were rating those and then they were presented with some bearded guys at the end well they
29:03
became far more attractive if you present the even condition with that mixture of clean shaven stubble and full
29:10
beards then the preferences for um clean shaving and beardedness are
29:17
pretty much identical and that preference for stubble emerges so that kind of somewhere in between kind of
29:23
look so we found this really nice evidence for experiment Al evidence for
29:29
um negative frequency dependent preferences for facial hair and um you
29:34
know it complemented that historical data that Robinson got from The Illustrated London news quite nicely and
29:41
of course at the time when we wrote this paper there were lots of young men part of a sociocultural movement of hipsters
29:49
at the time that were wearing full beards and so it became kind of a a kind
29:54
of guess like in the media media as being perhaps it's the end of the Hipster craze and some other new style
30:01
is going to come in and take over but experimentally there was some evidence there for that that novelty for facial
30:08
hair could be underpinning variations in cultural grooming patterns in order to
30:15
appeal amongst crowds of other young adult males and stand out yeah I guess I
30:21
I'll just jump in on that so so some people in the audience might be kind of skeptical of this frequency dependence
30:27
thing being unique to beards I'll I'll just kind of throw in that that plenty of other uh traits have been tested and
30:34
you know sometimes you get a frequency dependent selection effect and sometimes you don't right so so so some people
30:41
might be thinking oh you know of course you know if you stand out you're going to get looked out longer you're going to look better uh but but there have been
30:46
other studies on on on I believe eye color was looked at or actually wasn't eye color it was hair color where there
30:52
was a null effect I believe and eye color where there was a positive effect uh I apolog oliz so that that's all just
30:58
to say that um it's not it's not that being unique in general is always sexy
31:05
uh it's it's it depends on the trait whether standing out is better than blending in absolutely we uh yeah we did
31:12
a study on the the hair color women's women pictures of women with different hair colors and we even made the lengths
31:19
vary a bit so it wasn't all obviously about hair color so uh and we found a very very strong null effect of
31:26
manipulating women's hair color on frequency dependent preferences so you can prime participants to see lots of
31:32
redheads lots of darkhaired women and lots of blonde uh hair and it doesn't make a difference as to the diff the
31:39
preferences that they report for different hair colors so you're right like it and it's it's not always that
31:46
you get these patterns it's not there is one example where it appears to be the case and that's um hem lengths in
31:54
women's dress that was Nigel Barber's papers from some years ago now and I don't know how well that replicates but
32:01
hem length seems to vary and come in and out of style um and I don't know what
32:06
that means necessarily for evolutionary theory but in terms of fashion and and whatnot there's a novelty effect there
32:13
yeah exactly I'm I'm glad you uh you flushed that out on the hair color thing I I actually didn't realize you were
32:19
involved on that paper and and a former um mentor of mine from undergrad she did
32:25
an eye color study um that did find an effect at least in European women where they had a they had a strong preference
32:31
for the uncommon eye color so I completely misspoke there actually and I was I was thinking of the um hair color
32:36
null finding but that's but it's all but it's all just to say that it's all just to say that they're
32:42
they you know there there are traits such as hair color where there doesn't seem to be a frequency dependent selection effect and there are traits
32:48
like beards and eye color and apparently hem lengths on dresses where there seems to and and so you know if you find it on
32:55
a trait uh it's an IND indicator that something special is going on not an indicator that you know being special is
33:01
what's special if that makes any sense yeah yeah that's absolutely right you know I'll give you a little prediction
33:07
and uh you know if uh listeners I'd be very curious know what what they think because you know I'm 41 now so I'm I'm
33:13
out of this um age bracket where um this is relevance to to my life but I've
33:20
noticed uh the frequency with which people are changing their facial shape and having minor cosmetic surgery I
33:27
wonder if that is having a frequency dependent Spike and for what reasons
33:32
it's occurring that would be something I would be I would love to know if there's been research on that yeah that's that's
33:38
that's fascinating and it's also it'll be interesting to see whether you know because frequency can also depend affect
33:45
single signal strength even when the signal isn't about attractiveness so like for example um you know tattoos I
33:51
mean I'm I'm covered in tattoos and they used to have this strong countercultural
33:57
signaling ability uh that seems to have been even in the Last 5 Years muted
34:02
substantially and I'm guessing that if we give it another if we give it another 20 maybe um maybe it won't be
34:08
countercultural at all to have a tattoo it'll become like it'll become like earrings or something where it's it's like some people have them some people
34:13
don't but the the signal strength is is of uh of being a rebel has been completely diluted I I guess I'm I'm
34:21
interested in other sort I I I want to get back on beards for a second because I I I know you've looked at other
34:27
sources of variation and I want to make sure that we um we hit what's what's been found to review null effect on
34:35
ovulation which is you know kind of par for the course a lot of the studies in the last 10 years have found null
34:41
effects on the ovulation work uh menopause there is an effect but you're
34:46
saying that that's the illusion cre that's an illusion created by the men with beards looking older and so being
34:51
more you know in these women's age range as a result that that makes perfect sense uh not the pathogen stuff uh you
34:59
know a great idea nothing there and then the frequency stuff uh kind of a kind of
35:05
an outof left field idea but one that seems to be true yep I I'm Loosely
35:12
remembering did you do something on population density as well or or city size then if there's any other findings
35:19
on on variation uh before we move on to the attractiveness stuff it would be probably good to touch those as well oh
35:25
yeah absolutely um so the um the study that you're referring to we again wanted
35:31
to look at this this frequency dependent effect and if we at the time uh we did
35:36
the study there was this kind of peak of of young men growing facial hair and the question then becomes well why follow
35:43
suit are there any demograph demographic uh predictors of it or any ecological or
35:49
economic circumstances that might actually explain why young men are
35:54
growing facial hair to the the same extent as one another why why mimic one another's uh grooming patterns if you
36:02
like so we did a very large study where we went back this was back when Facebook
36:07
used to allow you to have different things that you could cull right you
36:12
could put in are people a certain age are they of I believe sexual orientation you used to be able to put in so we we
36:19
were able to get photographs like profile photographs across many many different
36:25
countries of men on Facebook their their preferred picture that they want
36:30
everyone to see when you go onto their profile and we did so for um men from
36:37
different sized cities within those countries right so we deliberately picked population density to vary within
36:45
um the countries that we looked at and we did this we did 100 uh profiles per
36:50
city across I believe it was 34 different countries maybe more and then we took that data
36:57
and we compared it against women's uh preferences for facial hair um using a
37:03
questionnaire that we ran online and we matched the frequency of facial hair in the cities that we'd got from the
37:09
profiles from Facebook against women's rated preferences in this this study across the same areas what we found was
37:18
that facial hair among men was highest in those places where there was greater
37:23
population density so more young people packed together trying to move up the
37:29
social hierarchy I guess an economic hierarchy and have jobs and attract mates men were more bearded in those
37:36
places than the the less densely populated cities or or towns and then we
37:42
looked at the mate preferences and in fact again that that the frequency to
37:48
which facial hair was more profuse uh was highest in those cities with highest
37:53
population density and lowest uh income um so more sorry income disparity
38:00
was greater so harder to get yourself a job and and move move into the kind of
38:05
place you'd want to live in and settle and have a have a life so that was more precarious economic status was more
38:11
precarious and also female choice for facial hair was higher so it's almost
38:16
like a combination of uh socioeconomic and demographic
38:22
factors conspire alongside uh female preferences for
38:27
facial hair to to predict the amount of facial hair that you'll see
38:33
cross-culturally and these are in you know the the kind of as I say their cities densely populated cities so they
38:39
they're not representative of the entire world or small scale societies but nonetheless it would suggest that
38:46
signaling sexual maturity and masculinity through facial hair was prioritized in more densely
38:54
populated uh settings with more consp specifics around to compete for economic
39:00
resources and also to compete for mates so that was kind of a a really really
39:05
neat finding I thought yeah that is very neat and I think it's going to relate more to our discussion of the maale male
39:12
direct competition side of facial hair just because you know income inequality is it's a proxy for mating Market
39:19
intensity right if there's more stratification between males right if some men are millionaires and some men are homeless well then you know
39:25
competing you know suddenly it matters but if if everyone's making $20 an hour uh then then it then it doesn't really
39:31
you know why compete at all there there's not much to be one or lost so you know that that's one thing and then
39:37
obviously if we're looking at density that that means or or city size that means more competitors per square mile
39:43
right that's that's uh that's that's another potential proxy for for male male competition intensity I I would
39:51
like to ask while we're on the topic of attractiveness in general I you know it seems that there's this that there's
39:57
this effect of frequency on attractiveness that doesn't seem to tell a particularly persuasive story of
40:04
beards evolving via that route right it might be part of the story but it
40:09
doesn't it doesn't leave me walking away saying oh you know that's why beards evolve because when they're uncommon they're sexy that you know that that
40:16
doesn't really work for me yep I guess um one thing to throw in here and and
40:22
it's pretty closely related to beards and very closely related to work that you've published what about facial
40:27
masculinity generally right so so masculine facial traits other than
40:33
beards are are those attractive and and how does facial masculinity uh interface
40:39
with the findings that we see on beards no that's absolutely right and with regards attractiveness I've I've looked
40:45
at that too and it's been something that it's a logical thing to to compare with
40:51
facial hair because of course facial hair grows on around those regions that you would uh typically Define as
40:57
facially masculine so as with other bodily traits men and women on average
41:03
differ in several Androgen dependent characteristics notably jaw size brow
41:10
Ridge depth uh which then influences somewhat narrower eyes or at least the
41:15
appearance of narrower eyes um and then a wider bizygomatic width which is your
41:21
cheekbones now there are various studies out there claiming that one component of
41:27
these measures is more important than the other I'm going to sidestep that for a minute and just say that looking at
41:33
these sexually dimorphic masculine fatal features has preoccupied a lot of research and really my my stuff borrowed
41:41
heavily from that the facial hair research and part of the reason I got
41:46
into uh doing facial hair research was because I wanted to do some facial shape research masculinity stuff and every
41:54
time I read a paper um that they'd written they'd put in the methods only
41:59
clean shaven faces were used because facial hairs are confound and everyone's
42:05
terrified of compounds obviously in their experiments someone's going to pull apart their Theory and their data
42:10
you know because of course how could you ever claim something like that when um you know you've you're confounded for
42:17
facial hair so that piqu my interest and I thought well actually facial hair is more sexually dimorphic than facial
42:24
shape and so I'm going to look at that but to to bring it back to the facial
42:29
masculinity literature well yes there are studies showing that more masculine
42:35
looking guys are judged as more sexually mature more masculine obviously than
42:40
less facially masculine guys and especially when you show the same guy morph to appear more or less masculine
42:47
that's an very popular way of of pulling out this effect quickly and easily and
42:52
replica the attractiveness question is just as variable as the beard edness research that I've done I mean and in
42:58
fact my research Drew heavily on that literature and you know in some context
43:04
spatial masculinity might be more attractive and some of these hypotheses that I mentioned earlier like the
43:10
ovulatory shift and the changes in hormone levels were argued initially and
43:15
this is not for a small period of time for well over a decade this was the dominant accepted theory that women
43:22
shift their preferences when they're more fertile to WS masculine looking
43:28
guys uh because those masculine guys could be delivering the good genes and
43:34
as I mentioned those hypotheses around pathogens but also the um fad and
43:41
Carter's immunocompetence hypothesis was that testosterone lowers immune function
43:47
so therefore if you have a testosterone or Androgen dependent trait like facial masculinity relies on androgens for its
43:54
expression and it appears in adolescence and fully developed at adulthood so you
43:59
know that would communicate viability but also communicate the ability to withstand the negative impact of
44:06
testosterone on the immune system hence delivering better genetic quality to offspring and if there is female choice
44:13
or choosiness around that trait presumably masculinity is going to be more attractive when being choosy would
44:20
be highly beneficial and you know as you mentioned earlier these these studies
44:25
and me including trying to replicate I've never replicated those things and there's been lots of debate surrounding
44:32
why this is the case and it's basically my take on it that the this ovulatory
44:37
shift effect isn't as strong anywhere near as strong as the initial studies that first um reported it and there are
44:44
others out there I would imagine that would have a stronger statement regarding whether it's even a relevant
44:50
mechanism underpinning variation in women's mate Choice um but nonetheless
44:56
facial masculinity is interesting and facial hair is interesting as well
45:01
because it can do one of two things to to a face that varies in underlying masculinity on the one hand it can make
45:08
a masculine face look more masculine it's like dialing up the the masculinity
45:13
ometer by adding this big chunk of hair on top of your already big jaw and
45:18
emphasizing your brow Ridge because your eyes are going to be drawn up to uh other features and even maybe making the
45:24
bomatic width of the face greater so that would be one thing so you could be
45:30
very very very masculine looking by being you know crania facially masculine and adorning that with a full beard the
45:38
alternative is that it could provide an advantage to very uh if for want of a
45:44
better word feminine looking men they could actually dial up their masculinity to a level that would be preferred under
45:51
whatever circumstances socioculturally or and um mask those characteristics
45:57
that are perhaps less uh mature looking in the face so if you do have a what
46:04
you'd call a grass ale chin you know delicate features if you want to call it that then perhaps you could um embellish
46:10
upon those with masculinity through growing facial hair and that's kind of where I got interested in that because
46:16
um why not test that as a hypothesis like it might not be that being the most masculine looking individuals attractive
46:23
all the time but the there's variation here in two traits so I did a study
46:29
where we looked at the clean shaven light stubble heavy stubble and full
46:35
bearded faces uh on a sample of men um natural faces that I'd collected
46:41
photographs of and then we morphed the faces to look more or less masculine so
46:46
you had these sort of feminized versions and masculinized versions of all the different degrees of facial hair and the
46:54
the results were quite you know interesting in that the completely masculine looking guy did did drop off
47:02
in appeal because it's like just perhaps too much masculinity to have you know this big jaw with a beard on it and you
47:09
know super masculine facial features embellished with the facial hair but the
47:14
the faces that were judged to be more attractive with facial hair were those much more feminine looking um uh faces
47:22
and somewhere in the middle for the most attractiveness was comb a of masculinity and femininity and and stubble so there
47:30
was definitely well we interpreted it in the paper as perhaps there's a masking effect of faces that make a man look
47:38
younger one of the easiest uh if you follow the classic David bus kind of
47:43
studies one of the easiest studies to replicate might be that women prefer a partner who's somewhat older than them
47:50
they're doesn't I'm not saying 20 years older and 3 to 5 years perhaps and facial hair one of of the things it does
47:56
and I haven't mentioned this so far and it's not surprising at all but it increases perceived age so a man who's
48:03
25 and grows a full beard probably would be rated as looking 28 or 29 maybe even
48:10
30 so age and maturity are enhanced by facial hair and if you have a face that
48:16
as I say for one of a better word doesn't look as mature as as a masculine
48:21
face the the feminized looking individual they get more of a boost and attractiveness by by having facial hair
48:28
as this kind of Badge of masculinity and age and sexual maturity and hence
48:33
viability oh fascinating all right well I I I guess I've got two immediate thoughts on that the first and I haven't
48:39
read this paper that that you're referring to I will after our call the first thought that I'm having is is the
48:46
is is you know the recent conclusion in the kind of summary of like what's attractive in the most recent Oxford
48:52
Handbook of evolutionary psychology and romantic relationship where they basically said slightly feminine male faces are generally more
48:59
attractive and more more masculine than average bodies uh are more attractive
49:05
which again kind of goes to the the Blended thing where it's like it seems that some Fe you know some combination
49:11
of femininity and masculinity is coming out better but on the but I think the masking story is a better one and it
49:18
reminds me of something that you know maybe maybe you've already looked into or would want to look into in the future
49:24
perhaps online there's there's this term called beard fishing right I don't know if youve heard it where you know so it's it's a
49:32
derivative of catfishing and it's referring to men who are facially
49:37
unattractive but hide that using a big beard uh so the you know the and and and
49:43
this you know this makes some sense we've already talked about Contour shape change but also a beard creates the
49:48
illusion a good beard will create the illusion of symmetry where there's no symmetry right it can hide facial and
49:54
neck fat and even create the illusion of a jawline uh it hides skin imperfections
50:00
so someone with very bad skin could hide two3 of their face in some cases with a with a big enough beard and a and a
50:07
baseball cap right and so and so if if you look at if you look at beards as
50:13
coverup it could be that just in general there's an attraction effect where you know if you're a very handsome man right
50:20
if you're Ryan goling well growing a beard is going to hide what you actually have to work with but if you're you know
50:26
if if you're I'm not going to list I'm not going to list an ugly actor I'm not going to call someone out but I almost
50:31
did if um but you know if you if you hide most of your face I don't know I is
50:36
is there any work on that on uh on beards not being more attractive but maybe making you less ugly that I've
50:43
never done that study but that's essentially my my take on it is that and and you know even the other day I was
50:49
talking to a friend of mine and she was telling me you know about her her husband and you know just a little
50:55
little still younger than me but the husband's a little older than me and she was saying oh you know when I first met
51:00
him and you'll see in our wedding picture she was showing me her wedding pictures and she said you'll see he's got this like hanging bit under his neck
51:07
I was like what and she goes a bit of kind of like floppy skin underneath his neck I hate it so I make him grow facial
51:12
hair and I was like oh okay and then she showed me the picture and I was like I see what you mean like I as a straight
51:18
man heterosexual man I wasn't really particularly one way or the other I just was like oh that's him clean shaven but
51:24
after she pointed it out I was like I see what you mean um and I think this thing you've just mentioned of of beard
51:30
fishing that is that's fascinating I mean this idea that you're you're cheating your potential future dates if
51:38
you like by masking who you really are underneath your facial hair that's that's essentially what I I think might
51:44
be happening with the attractiveness of facial hair particularly among your your he heavy set guys you know where they
51:51
might not have a jawline or something like that and they can mimic that jawline effect by grooming their facial
51:58
hair if they're able to grow you know that that amount of stubble into facial hair then that could work to their
52:03
advantage and the masking effects to to not disguise it's I don't I think the
52:10
beard fishing thing is funny because it makes it sound like guys are malicious right yeah they've got this some like evil plan to they're eventually going to
52:18
shave and reveal yeah yeah but you know um it is something that that points to
52:24
this idea of uh an ornament that covers up as you say some perhaps imperfections
52:31
in the skin and lack of jawline and may give the face shape that will give it
52:37
higher attractiveness than if they didn't have that um and as you say if somebody happens to be blessed with
52:43
these great good looks like you know your actors out there Ryan goling and so forth like hey you know maybe that
52:50
embellishment of the the facial hair is just it's not required you you've got the looks all already you got the
52:56
jawline that people like and the you know parameters of the eyes relative to
53:01
that jawline and brow Ridge and Etc that isn't too fullon and just about right to
53:07
be to be appealing in terms of beauty or or handsomeness you're right it could
53:12
just be that beards reduce for want of a better word unattractive lower
53:18
attractiveness they they boost it up to that level where you know an unattractive face because of the reasons
53:25
we've just been talking about might be enhanced and brought up to a level of of
53:31
you know satisfactory attractiveness I I'm G to look into this beard fishing thing because that's just piqued my
53:37
interest but no that that I think it follows with what I was talking about quite nicely it definitely does dovetail
53:42
if you ever if you ever are interested maybe later this year or or early next year I think it would be a pretty easy
53:48
study to run and we could potentially use data you've already collected uh so
53:54
one thing that you could do or or pot potentially we if you want if you want some help on it is we could get ratings
54:02
for the clean on data sets where you already have the attractiveness effects of beards you could get ratings of the
54:08
attractiveness of all the clean shaven faces and then the prediction of this hypothesis that you know beard fishing
54:14
is part of the story here and and you know maybe it's not it's it's this is totally speculative at this point um but
54:21
if if it's part of it then you would expect that the clean shaven faces that are less attractive will become less
54:26
unattractive when they grow a beard and the the clean shaven faces that are more attractive will become less attractive
54:33
when they grow a beard basically it's it's creating you know it's and and and maybe there's I know that some people have already done studies on coid masks
54:40
and attractiveness and how you know it seems to dampen the extremes and and maybe beards you know a beard is
54:47
Nature's Co mask so no I it's funny you say that because you know at the height
54:52
of the pandemic you know I've got two two pretty young children and at the time they were one of them was basically
54:58
a baby and the other one was a very young toddler and so those papers came out and I was like that's what I've been
55:04
thinking about with facial hair and I just I'm just now feeling more more back
55:10
to my regular self in terms of work and coming up with ideas and I'd love to work on that project and it would be
55:16
super easy to to do and all you'd need to do I would probably do a new study with all the faces that I have access to
55:23
um in my set and give like um have a midpoint of the scale be zero it's like
55:29
a neutral and then have people go down as in less attractive to minus 50 and
55:35
then attractive to plus 50 and then you could you could see how how the individual variation fluctuates as a
55:42
function of facial hair and I would go you know some you know on record un
55:47
officially as saying I think what you're suggesting there might actually happen that that would be a fairly strong
55:54
inkling of mine it's not yeah not making you super attractive but it might dampen
56:00
the unattractiveness of the face for sure I'm I'm thinking that's a legit way of looking at it yeah I'd also I'd also
56:07
expect it to dampen attractiveness frankly because just looking when I think of okay who are who are the male
56:12
heart throbs you know it's not guys with big bushy beards and the only exception is uh that I can think of just off the
56:19
top of my head is the is the musical artist Drake and uh he is a classic example you know on the
56:25
in let's call the gray literature I'm referring to Tik Tok of he'd be a classic example of beard fishing
56:32
stereotypically of like oh he didn't have much of a jaw you know maybe he had naturally kind of a more fat on his face
56:37
again nothing wrong with that but it's just not what's necessarily appealing he grows this big beard and suddenly you know he's he's hot stuff uh I don't know
56:46
if if you're if you're interested in uh in getting me involved in this I I I would I would happily do a bunch of
56:51
grunt work to um to help you out but we'll we'll talk about that over over email maybe yes okay so I guess with the
56:59
facial to look at facial masculinity right facial hair uh we're we're getting
57:04
this I'm getting this picture that it it seems to be about neutral right it doesn't seem like there's there's a
57:11
strong preference either way and there are these contexts that make it more or
57:17
less attractive right to have facial hair um and maybe to be facially masculine as well although we didn't
57:23
really we didn't really get into that yeah but but it doesn't seem that the you know attracting Girls part of the
57:29
scenario or attracting women part of the scenario that that that that doesn't seem to be what's happening with the
57:36
hair on our faces agree with that I think it would be good then to Pivot to where we see stronger effects so I I
57:44
I've read I've read again quite a bit of your work on beards and the overall
57:49
impression I'm getting right from the from the anger the dominance the age all this stuff is that beards are quite
57:56
intimidating is that an accurate interpretation overall or have I have I read too much no no no that so back to
58:04
the beginning of our discussion when I said uh was telling you about the first paper I ever wrote uh on facial hair
58:10
which was I was working in Sumer and doing my PhD in in New Zealand you know
58:16
the clean shaven faces were more attractive and and that kind of made me think I'd found some clear result when
58:22
the broader literature just led me down this path of you know looking at nuanced
58:27
effects the other clear result I found in both cultures was that social status
58:33
or or dominance in the same category and was was much higher for bearded than
58:40
clean shaven faces and that was men and women in both cultures that had strong
58:45
agreement on that and then I also asked men to look at the faces of um you know
58:52
in Samoa Polynesian faces and in um New Zealand you know European faces with and
58:58
without facial hair but posing now angry faces and it seemed to me at the time
59:06
the reason I did the study was if facial hair is involved in sociosexual
59:11
signaling to women and men um and this is in some way sexually selected you
59:16
might expect it to embellish upon those facial expressions used in nonverbal
59:21
communication or in concert with verbal communication to enhance perceived anger
59:27
and aggressiveness and threat and if you go down that path of male male signaling or intrasexual competition as the
59:34
classic darwinian terms for it then perhaps um facial hair kind of
59:40
embellishes upon those threatening facial expressions and that's that's what I found in both Samo and and New
59:46
Zealand was that being having an angry face with a full beard was far more
59:51
threatening looking than that same male photograph uh clean shaven and doing the the angry
59:57
facial expression and I to be honest I looking back on it in 2012 when that
1:00:04
paper came out I went down the kind of path of looking at the attractiveness question for many years and I kind of
1:00:10
circled back to the male male competition stuff because I was like wait a minute why have I why have I not
1:00:16
pursued this question a bit more and I did a series of studies where we looked
1:00:22
at implicit reaction times and accuracy of assigning facial expressions so
1:00:27
smiling or happy and angry uh threatening uh facial expressions with
1:00:33
and without facial hair and participants oh and sad facial expressions too um
1:00:38
just have another negative if you like facial expression that's not involved in threat to see if it's not just
1:00:44
recognition of um threatening faces but you know it could just be that these are negative facial expressions and beards
1:00:50
enhanced negative facial expressions more than positive ones or Pro Pro social ones like smiling and we did
1:00:56
these studies um I work with Belinda Craig who's a much more of a cognitive
1:01:02
neuro type researcher than me and um we we looked at reaction times and accuracy
1:01:08
of assigning the correct facial expression to the to the one they were looking at with bearded and clean shaven
1:01:15
faces and participants were faster and more accurate to assign anger to a
1:01:21
bearded face and a clean shaven face they were faster to uh assign smiles to
1:01:27
a clean shaven than a bearded face and um the effect wasn't due to it being a
1:01:34
negative facial expression like sadness because they weren't faster to assign um
1:01:40
sadness to the bearded face than the the clean shaven face and that that paper was published in
1:01:46
2019 I want to say and I Then followed up and did a a second study with Belinda
1:01:53
on that where we looked that uh stubble like is it a linear effect so is a a
1:02:00
Happ sorry an angry clean shaven face um recognized faster sorry slower than a
1:02:07
stubbled bearded face and these are the angry facial expressions and then the the quickest would be the uh full
1:02:13
bearded and we actually found this linear pattern uh for for how fast and
1:02:18
accurately people identified threatening facial expressions in um male faces when
1:02:25
there were beards of increasing size added to the face so I really think that
1:02:31
it's a uh explicit uh thing like men explicitly rank males as looking more
1:02:39
threatening and more masculine and dominant when they see a fully bearded face compared to a clean shaven and also
1:02:46
it um it comes out in sociosexual signaling through through nonverbal uh
1:02:52
facial expressions of emotion um I then did another study uh circling
1:02:58
back to the um you know question of facial masculinity and I thought well if
1:03:03
it's really intr seually selected like male male signaling here I wonder if
1:03:09
those males that are you know less masculine looking and we I should mention facial masculinity correlates
1:03:16
with upper body strength and and muscle and so it does provide a window into the kind of underlying physique of the
1:03:23
individual that you might be assessing as a potential rival let's say you're getting in an argument with somebody and
1:03:29
you're just looking face to face those masculine guys probably have broader shoulders and a bit stronger potentially
1:03:35
than less masculine guys and just to ask a ask a quick question about signals such as that do we know whether it's
1:03:42
that we've evolved perceptual abilities to detect cues to strengthen the face or
1:03:47
is that that the face is evolved to Signal the underlying quality or or what
1:03:52
what's the interpretation there General so my my take on it is that you can from the literature uh cues of upper body
1:04:01
strength are present in just assessing faces so it could be that the face face
1:04:06
provides uh you know that's where we look at with each other it's what we take photographs of and put on our walls
1:04:12
we don't put photographs of each other's shoulders you know we we put faces up
1:04:17
there and it can provide uh a somewhat accurate window into the uh physical I
1:04:24
guess formidability in in the case of masculinity so a more masculine face
1:04:30
more likely will belong to a guy with broader shoulders I I have a paper that just came out on that uh in biology
1:04:37
letters with Neil K and my former PhD student where we looked at uh in 6,000
1:04:44
plus men and women's faces and we looked at principal components of physique um
1:04:49
and we had a principal component which related to upper body measures like you know Broad broad shoulders um thicker
1:04:56
circumferences of the arm and all these other characteristics that broadly would speak to sexual dimorphism and
1:05:03
muscularity and physique and that was the strongest predictor strongest Association sorry with the uh bogatic
1:05:11
width and masculinity for want of another word so there is some evidence for that and that's not the only paper
1:05:17
but just because that was recently published in biology letters it comes to mind um so I I think think it's that
1:05:24
faces do provide in this case some some indication of accuracy regarding the
1:05:31
formidability physically of a potential rival so I took that question much like
1:05:37
the attractiveness stuff that we were talking about earlier on and I thought well what what if you don't have a
1:05:43
particularly formidable face and you're you know having a agonistic encounter with somebody or a disagreement or
1:05:49
you're just trying to get your point across does the facial hair it do anything to augment uh perceptions of
1:05:58
masculinity social dominance and physical aggressiveness and I did a a study on this um where we took uh faces
1:06:07
that were clean shaven and bearded and I morphed them with my collaborators to be
1:06:13
super feminine looking somewhat feminine looking neutral somewhat masculine and very
1:06:19
masculine on clean shaven and bearded faces and we found for those ratings was
1:06:26
that obviously you get this you do get a very large effect of just beards on their own but when you look at the
1:06:32
interaction between the degree of facial masculinity and clean shaven versus
1:06:37
beardedness an absolutely fascinating thing emerged which was that the guy the
1:06:42
face that was morphed to look really really feminine with facial hair was ranked as uh significantly more um
1:06:51
dominant sorry significantly more masculine dominant and aggressive compared to the clean shaven hyper
1:06:58
masculine looking face these effect yeah the effect sizes ranged from you know
1:07:04
medium to to large as well they weren't just trivial effect sizes that that's
1:07:09
incredible so so what we're looking at here is that facial masculinity just so I make sure I'm following what you're
1:07:14
saying facial masculinity is an honest cue to formidability right and that
1:07:20
translates or it seems to be and that translates to [Music] perceptions of increased dominance
1:07:28
aggressiveness easier um maybe anger perception that sort of thing right those sorts of findings when we look at
1:07:34
a masculine face and the same thing is true for beards but even more so right we perceive them as more dominant
1:07:41
aggressive but but I've read you call beards a and maybe maybe maybe this
1:07:47
wasn't your writing obviously multiple authors a a dishonest signal of formidability so so are you implying
1:07:54
that that while masculine faces actually are right like so I guess what I'm saying is masculine faces look scarier
1:08:02
and they actually are scary because masculine faed men are more dangerous on average beards are scarier right they
1:08:08
look scarier but they aren't actually scary because there's no underlying truth to the promise and yet this the
1:08:16
signal is stronger still am I am I following what's happening I think that that's uh about about right in my
1:08:22
opinion and with getting a little bit into the biology of facial hair is important here and the the traits that
1:08:29
we're talking about like muscularity and I believe crania facial masculinity they
1:08:35
rely for testosterone on their their development facial hair undergoes a
1:08:41
different process and it it's a little bit complicated but I'll just throw it out there for for the audience to to
1:08:47
digest and that is that um you can pump somebody full of testosterone and they
1:08:54
will grow facial hair but they'll only grow facial hair to the degree to which they're genetically capable to grow it
1:09:00
and what I mean by that is um testosterone is converted into another form of Androgen called dihydro
1:09:08
testosterone within the hair follicle right and that it requires um a enzyme
1:09:15
activity called five Alpha reductase 2 to for it to grow so if you if you pump
1:09:22
somebody full of t testosterone the only way it's going to turn testosterone to dihydro testosterone is having the
1:09:29
genetic capability to transform that hormone into the necessary hormone
1:09:35
through that five Alpha reductase 2 deficiency sorry five Alpha reductase to activity and we know this because of
1:09:43
there there are a cluster of males uh identified in a handful of populations around the world um one in Papa New
1:09:50
Guinea for instance of men born with five Alpha reduct to deficiency it's just a um a genetic abnormality if you
1:09:58
like and they're unable to grow body hair facial hair or pubic hair and this is because they lack that enzyme
1:10:06
capability uh to to transform testosterone to dihydro testosterone but
1:10:11
interestingly they're taller if not taller on average and they muscular and all these other characteristics that
1:10:18
rely on testosterone alone for their expression so the reason why I'm saying it's potentially a dishonest thing is
1:10:26
because it doesn't relate it doesn't correlate directly with the expression
1:10:31
of other Androgen dependent traits that are linked to to physique and it doesn't
1:10:37
share what you'd call an allometric relationship with other parts of physique that I mentioned so if you have
1:10:44
a more masculine face then it shares allometry the traits correlate with
1:10:50
other parts of the body that are bigger and more more masculine looking whereas facial hair goes through a different
1:10:56
biological mechanism for its expression and I know that that's quite a lot to
1:11:01
digest U perhaps for people that aren't familiar with with how androgens work during ontogeny and into puberty and
1:11:08
into adulthood but the way I've been thinking about it has been with that in mind in order to understand its its
1:11:15
signaling role it can't do anything to actually accurately display to another
1:11:22
male that you're actually able to outdo them physically what I would suggest instead is that it has a very rapid
1:11:31
quick uh effect that it induces in somebody looking at you which makes you go ah this is a um another male getting
1:11:39
angry I'm I'm understanding that very rapidly and that might ctail some of
1:11:44
these agonistic uh confrontations that would be an interesting study to to do
1:11:51
because I believe that you know barring the world of something like MMA or
1:11:57
something like that we it's not like you want to get into a fight too often it's costly so if an ornament actually
1:12:04
embellishes you beyond what what is perhaps accurate then it might might
1:12:09
help to ctail agonistic confrontations from escalating yeah of course of course
1:12:15
and so much of you know male male competition is bluffing and actually um
1:12:20
successfully interpreting uh you know the signal that that someone could be dangerous so that you don't have to
1:12:26
fight right the the only point of perceiving danger is so you can avoid it so so so so that that makes perfect
1:12:32
sense to me so I guess to to I want to talk more about fighting to to to map
1:12:39
yeah to to map some of this out it sounds like you're saying that and I'm
1:12:45
going to try to summarize some of the the complex uh testosterone and hormonal
1:12:50
literature that you just shared is that fa facial masculinity is scary and it's an accurate cue to
1:12:59
physical strength because facial masculinity is predicted by testosterone which also predicts you know strength
1:13:07
broadness those sorts of things that are that are genuinely something to worry about uh if someone gets a hold of you
1:13:13
yeah beards however are there there's you know this disconnect where it's like yes you need testosterone to start the
1:13:19
process but there's no linear relationship between the amount of testosterone you have and the amount of
1:13:26
beard you know beard display signal you can produce because there's this middleman here of you know your your
1:13:32
genetic ability to uh convert Alpha reductase I believe you said Alpha
1:13:38
reductase to um to basically to make the beard happen I guess I guess the mechanism doesn't really make sense that
1:13:44
makes perfect sense to me right and then the reason that beards work as a signal is because they translate the
1:13:51
information I'm an angry man right they translate that information quier another potential signaling
1:13:58
function as it relates to violence so when I grew up right when when when I was a teenager and and and a young adult
1:14:05
I I you know I was an amateur boxer and that was my main sport and I remember
1:14:11
they used to make us shave our facial hair right before fights right they they literally if you showed up with even a
1:14:16
mustache right they'd be like hey that's uh that's going to act as a cushion you have to shave it right and whether
1:14:22
that's true or not I don't know but in pro boxing right it happens as well where you know if one
1:14:27
fighter has a big bushy uh Drake style beard then you know the the opponent
1:14:33
will have the option at least to complain and say hey that beard could be a cushion right because it's it's going
1:14:38
to be it's going to be harder to knock this guy out if he's got you know a pillow attached to his face and I guess
1:14:44
the I guess that kind of adds some I mean you know boxing officials we
1:14:51
everyone could just be wrong about beard working uh but some evolutionary theorists have you know thrown this out
1:14:57
there they've been like look in other animals we see you know things like increased hair around the neck right to
1:15:03
defend against bites to the neck since that's uh you know a cheap way of cushioning the body to just be like oh
1:15:09
we'll just grow hair and it's also a regenerative way to cushion the body right if it gets damaged if this
1:15:14
defensive architecture gets damaged well you know it grows back pretty quickly so I guess with all that context kind of in
1:15:20
the air do you think there's any possibility that the reason Reon I'm more intimidated by a guy with a beard
1:15:26
let's say is cuz something in my apish brain is like look if I hit this guy it's it's it's not going to work as well
1:15:31
oh that's that's I mean that's absolutely a theory that's been put out there um there was a paper that um I I
1:15:39
read years ago um by forgotten her first name Blanchard and she's an endocrinologist and she compared the
1:15:46
human beard to a lion's man and she argued that the Lion's man um was did
1:15:53
exactly what you just described it provides a regenerative protective organ that can you know make male lions
1:16:01
because male lions do fight and it's rough and it's costly and all that um and they also have harm defense poyy I
1:16:09
believe so they've got other females in their group that this other male might be trying to come in and take over and
1:16:15
get rid of the babies and start his own um reproductive career there so it's it
1:16:21
made sense logically that argument I'll get back to it in a minute but she then said the same analogy for human facial
1:16:28
hair so I thought well that's an interesting hypothesis and I thought I'd test it and you know as you mentioned
1:16:35
you know for boxing there's there's rules right people should shave and I by the sounds of what you were saying uh
1:16:42
it's somewhat optional uh to shave or not shave but if in the pros it in the
1:16:47
pros it's optional but if you're competing in USA boxing you know which is the main amateur system you like you
1:16:52
couldn't do even the lowest level of the Golden Gloves there' be a guy there being like hey shave your face yep yep
1:16:59
so that that's definitely um what I i' kind of heard and uh so I I avoided the
1:17:05
boxing data for that reason but interestingly in the UFC the Ultimate Fighting Championship which to be honest
1:17:12
with you I I can't really watch it it's the I mean it's the equivalent of putting ants in a jar and shaking them
1:17:19
up to me like you put people in this confined face and they're just you know
1:17:25
the most extreme time types of Fighters and it's it's difficult to watch if you got you
1:17:31
know a sensitive stomach basically because they really beat each other right and rip grapple each other in the
1:17:39
most full-on ways and but one thing they do allow you to do is to grow facial
1:17:44
hair so I thought well why not go through all the records of fights uh
1:17:50
look who won and look how they won knockout or submissions and all that kind of stuff and go back to the actual
1:17:57
photographs of the fight and try and get a sense of whether or not they had a big full bushy beard or not and um then you
1:18:06
could see whether or not there is in fact a protective function in a real one-on-one classic contest competition
1:18:14
kind of scenario where anything goes because it's mixed fighting it's not like it's just boxing or it's just it's
1:18:20
MMA right mixed martial arts so there's going to be people in there that that are going to box someone just to knock
1:18:27
out and there are going to be people that do other grappling techniques and there's another hypothesis that's built
1:18:32
into that this time not from Blanchard but from zahavi and zahavi where they thought that facial hair actually could
1:18:40
be a handicap in a fight because if you allow it to grow and by the way facial hair keeps growing and until well till
1:18:47
really it it stops naturally which you know can be many meters long if you know
1:18:53
the world beard championships you can see guys with beards that are meters long right um perhaps that's a handicap
1:19:00
in a fight because be like the equivalent of you know grabbing someone's ponytail and pulling them back
1:19:05
to get an advantage or you could grab their beard and pull them towards you it hurts throws you off and you could you
1:19:10
could hit them so I tested these two hypotheses right competing hypotheses and I found absolutely no
1:19:18
evidence at all for beards either being something that was advanced V agous in
1:19:23
terms of not getting knocked out or something that was bad or not non advantageous uh in terms of being
1:19:30
something that could be grabbed and pulled and you're more likely to be knocked out perhaps if you have a beard so I found absolutely no evidence for
1:19:38
for the hypothesis that beers perform a protective function or or that they're a handicap uh using this MMA uh data that
1:19:46
we we generated yeah and I'll if you know I think that there's going to be some skepticism about the MMA made data
1:19:53
I I'll just throw out that you did find an effect for facial width to height ratio which is I believe a component of
1:19:59
facial masculinity that that was associated with MMA success uh for some of the reasons that you mentioned
1:20:04
earlier so it is Poss you know it's not that it's not that the methodology that um that you you've chosen you know can't
1:20:12
find stuff here uh there there's something to be said for it I will just throw out I I spoke to someone at a
1:20:17
conference about this you know UFC research which I I won't say is trendy right it's not particularly popular but
1:20:23
you know you're not the you're not the only one who's done it it's yeah it's something that's um I guess I guess it's
1:20:28
my way of saying that this is uh people who are interested in male male fighting have liked to play with it as a bit of a
1:20:35
laboratory here and um I Heard a criticism of it that I I'd just like you
1:20:40
to briefly weigh in on I'm not realizing that's a that's a UFC or boxing analogy in itself is is that selection has
1:20:48
already happened on this population for fighting ability so it's like you're looking at a at a population where it's
1:20:55
not everyone out in the world right it's you know the best fighters in the
1:21:01
world who have already gone through the selection filter of being winners right
1:21:06
and so you're looking at a population of winners and seeing how they do against each other but maybe in the real world
1:21:12
right with with people who aren't you know lifetime trained Strikers right
1:21:18
maybe um I guess I guess I guess I'll put this out here right like just just
1:21:23
looking at facial hair I'm not saying that I support this hypothesis I'm kind of Playing devil's advocate but looking
1:21:29
at facial hair it it's most thick around the exact places that you aim for when
1:21:37
you're trying to knock someone out and it's also thick around you know the worst place to get punched
1:21:43
hypothetically which would be the throat right yeah so it's it's it's literally guarding if it was a shield it's in the
1:21:50
perfect location right and then with a knockout there's a bit of a there's
1:21:56
surely you know going to be a bit of a threshold here where it's like you know if you get hit clean by a UFC fighter it
1:22:01
doesn't really matter whether you have a beard or not but if you get hit by you know random Joe Schmo at the bar you
1:22:07
know maybe the maybe two inches of facial hair actually you know maybe that's the Difference Maker you know maybe that's the difference between you
1:22:13
going to sleep and you being I don't know is there is there any is there any consideration of that I mean no those
1:22:18
are completely legitimate criticisms of of uh that this area of of research and
1:22:24
uh and totally legitimate ideas for future stuff I mean I'm always one of these people like hey if if it's wrong
1:22:31
or or it's not been done completely then I'm more than happy to entertain different data that gives a better
1:22:37
insight into it and and as you point out there is you know it's not like everyone's running around doing MMA
1:22:43
research but in in evolutionary psych or whatever but it does it provides a
1:22:48
chance to look at effects within that kind of uh contest competition realm and again
1:22:57
it's it's this idea of well where does selection operate properly on on traits
1:23:03
does it operate around the midpoint of the distribution of those traits like your typical average guy in the bar as
1:23:10
we're talking about that you know otherwise isn't going around and you know going into his office at work
1:23:15
closing the door and saying right I got a beef with my colleague let's this is now our MMA cage let's have a fight
1:23:23
um but maybe selection on these fighting abilities does operate on those extreme ends of the distributions right that
1:23:29
would be the same for say personality traits men and women for instance not massively different on narcissism and
1:23:36
all these other traits but if you look at the ends of the distribution you get those people that are very high in those
1:23:42
traits and they tend to be you know conmen and you know people that do abhorrent things within Society perhaps
1:23:50
these are just representative of the tail ends of the distribution and that's interesting in of itself um because
1:23:56
you've now got people that are extreme in this these characteristics but it's also problematic in the ways that you
1:24:03
you've pointed out as being criticisms of the study in that look if an MMA guy
1:24:09
spin kicks you in the head you're going down whether you're a pro or especially
1:24:14
if you're not a pro it's just that level of physical strength accuracy and
1:24:20
formidability in this very very unusually intense environment that
1:24:26
99.9% of us literally wouldn't ever go into so in a bar I mean let's let's
1:24:32
pretend it's not a bar with alcohol because alcohol kind of changes the whole landscape here if it was just a
1:24:38
situation where people were sober and went in and had a fight um and in fact one of the places
1:24:46
that this might be worth doing would be say bare knuckle boxing as another alternative sporting Avenue because it's
1:24:54
semi-professional and they don't protect themselves and you know they may well vary in their beardedness and you could
1:25:00
look at perhaps in more detail some of the the fighting outcomes that are more nuanced than just Knockouts it could be
1:25:07
scrapes abrasions Cuts perhaps it it it masks or protects against other things
1:25:13
Beyond just The Knockout but I think it's a fair criticism to say that these
1:25:19
MMA data sets that that we're using do represent those extreme ends of the
1:25:24
distribution um which like I say it's a double-edged uh thing here it means well
1:25:30
it's really interesting to study people at those ends of the distribution but then it's also not typical of of what
1:25:37
you would find in in everyday life and so as we all know sexual selection operates on variation within and between
1:25:46
populations and looking just at the extremes is is very limited but it does provide at least a test of some of these
1:25:53
these hypotheses moving forward yeah I mean it is I think and I think it is a test I mean that's the thing is that
1:25:59
it's um it's it's a source of potential evidence and if you had found you know I mean it's very easy to criticize X
1:26:05
postao but the reality is is that you did find an effect with the facial width to height ratio which is proof of proof
1:26:12
proof of method being able to find effects right and then second if you had come on the podcast and said actually
1:26:18
you know men with big bushy beards were less likely to get knocked out well I wouldn't have said you know none of
1:26:23
those criticisms would have come up so it's it's one of those things where it's like um you know I mean it probably is
1:26:30
true that the austral osines weren't uh throwing spinning back kicks to each
1:26:35
other's chins it probably was more sloppy strikes where maybe a beard could actually act as a shield um but you know
1:26:43
then again it's it it's uh I don't know it would be interesting it would be
1:26:48
interesting to know whether you know UFC fighters as a popul are more likely to be bearded than just you know
1:26:55
accountants it it would be a good test in the sense that if you found an effect it would say maybe something's happening
1:27:00
but it's not a great test in the sense that like a null effect isn't a isn't a super strong rejection the way it would
1:27:07
be with like the ovulation studies where it's like you found a null effect and it's like oh there really is nothing there it's like um it's still kind of uh
1:27:15
you know maybe but not uh not definitely situation okay well we've um we've covered a lot here and and we've
1:27:21
certainly we've certainly ticked the boxes that that I wanted to tick I mean I I guess
1:27:27
I'll just because I'm going to act as uh you know as The Listener here and and I
1:27:32
know that a lot of this podcast is just me repeating what you say back to you but it's really to make sure that I'm not misunderstanding because if you know
1:27:38
if I'm misunderstanding Then I then I'd guess you know at least a third of the audience probably is as well the picture
1:27:43
that I'm getting here right is that you know beards have some impact on attractiveness in some scenarios but the
1:27:51
big effects really are on intimidation right but those intimidation effects are
1:27:58
dishonest and so you know from a speculative point of view or or you know informed speculation
1:28:05
point of view beards are evolved as a dishonest ornament to Signal masculine
1:28:12
threat I think that's definitely definitely a big part of it and I would say that the things that it definitely
1:28:19
does communicate unambiguously is and this is again there
1:28:25
a crosscultural variation in in beard thicknesses I mean we're right now we're in in Australia and I work in the
1:28:31
Pacific Islands with melanesian populations like Papa new guini um
1:28:37
Vanuatu I do a lot of work in Vanuatu melanesian guys grow very very big thick beards but if you go say across to
1:28:44
Polynesia Samoa Tonga they don't grow the same profuseness of beards so there is crosscultural variation and uh that's
1:28:52
that's a whole other set of questions but broadly speaking um facial hair
1:28:57
unambiguously says that you're a biological male right um and you have
1:29:04
circulating levels of testosterone that permit you to grow this this trait it's complicated the mechanism but that's a
1:29:10
basic a basic tenant uh that you're older because it happens later in
1:29:16
puberty and so therefore as you're getting Fuller facial hair and you're
1:29:21
entering Young adulthood and you're sexually mature that's one thing that you can definitely communicate and that
1:29:28
you're actually holding adult status so you're viable as a mate as well so it
1:29:33
does communicate some pretty basic things accurately um and that that would be if you everyone around the world just
1:29:40
allowed themselves to grow facial hair to its natural levels that you're old SE
1:29:45
old enough sexually mature uh viable as a mate and then the attractiveness stuff
1:29:51
when beards are attractive just for people in in the world of Psych who are listening and and know about effect
1:29:58
sizes typically you get an effect size if it's in the direction of beards being
1:30:03
attractive between Point High Point one1 something to point2 something they're
1:30:09
very small effect sizes whereas for the judgments of masculinity dominance and
1:30:16
aggressiveness they tend to be medium to large so even when you have them in the
1:30:21
direction that would suggest beards are attractive that in in a study they tend to be pretty small effect sizes um and
1:30:29
so back to the threat side of things it doesn't communicate biological honesty
1:30:37
that you're actually more physically formidable it's a badge of a badge of status an ornament that uh communicates
1:30:44
as I say some aspects of sexual and social maturity to some extent but it's not an honest signal of physical
1:30:52
formidability fascinating that's that that's a great summary and I guess uh it's worth
1:30:57
just touching on briefly because I I think a lot of people including myself are going to be you know left slightly
1:31:04
confused as to how how it's possible that a beard
1:31:10
signals status age right um and and
1:31:15
sexually mature male um biology but does
1:31:22
lead to increased attract like I can't think of one other trait that would make me seem like if I could press a button
1:31:29
and say you know I I I want to be 10% more dominant seem you know 10% uh
1:31:34
higher status and 10% more obviously male right I would expect that after I
1:31:39
pressed that button I'd be more attractive to women right so how could it be the case that that beards offer
1:31:46
all of these uh you know positive masculine associations and then when you
1:31:52
actually ask women like hey who's you know who's the sexiest guy in this photo set the answer is H you know maybe that
1:31:57
bearded guy or H you know maybe maybe this clean shaven guy and it doesn't it doesn't seem to come out as an effect why why would that be the case well I
1:32:04
think and that question is yeah baffled me for a long time and I did do a study recently A couple of
1:32:11
years ago now but it's relatively recent where I think I got somewhere close to an answer to this again small effect
1:32:18
sizes but I asked um women who were not pregnant believe it was not pregnant PR
1:32:25
not pregnant currently pregnant and had young children what they found uh
1:32:31
appealing and not appealing in in facial hair I asked them a bunch of questions uh things like masculinity dominance
1:32:39
sexual attractiveness and then parental investment and nurturance right and what
1:32:45
happened was you know the if you look at women who have who don't have children
1:32:51
and are young and probably basing a lot of preferences on as is natural with
1:32:56
with people looking at what they find attractive the pure Aesthetics which as we're talking about is is variable when
1:33:02
it comes to facial hair preferences then yeah clean shaven faces were judged as as more sexually attractive by them
1:33:10
compared to um the women that have children under the age of one so nursing
1:33:16
infants however the opposite result and and the effect size was a bit larger for this was that they both both groups
1:33:24
judged um beards as looking dominant and masculine as as in all the other studies
1:33:30
I think I've pretty much read and all contributed myself and but one thing that they did differ on was the extent
1:33:36
to which there would be uh parental investment like nurturance and caring
1:33:42
and there's something going on there with with facial hair because the in that regard because the mothers with
1:33:48
young infants were rating them as more as higher on that Dimension significantly higher with a smallish to
1:33:54
mediumish effect size I believe it was in the small range ens D effect size but
1:33:59
nonetheless it was present compared to the uh women that didn't have children at all nalip Paris women you would call
1:34:06
them in the literature um and so it could be that it matters in the domain
1:34:13
or dimension of mating psychology and it could be that those masculine cues and
1:34:19
slight level of of dominance uh there we're not talking about inter partner violence here we're talking about
1:34:24
somebody who holds status and can provide but also has some nurturing qualities too because the that's part of
1:34:31
being a father as well is caring and nurturing for infants that that emerged as a significant finding uh that I I
1:34:40
think is worth probing in the future and it might be part of a suite of traits so
1:34:45
it may be that clean shaven guys as you mentioned earlier in the current uh uh
1:34:51
volume of Encyclopedia of evolutionary psychology where they talk about you know somewhat less masculine faces but a
1:34:58
a strong muscular physique is kind of what's considered in the literature at the moment to be uh identified as the
1:35:05
preferred traits in a male well postpartum when you're looking for an
1:35:10
investing partner muscularity may be of less importance and you know there's a phenomenon of of the dad bod emerging as
1:35:17
as people are telling me about a lot um where you know having a slight plumper body is actually indicative of nurturing
1:35:24
capabilities well perhaps that in concert with a full beard might actually
1:35:29
be attractive because it's sort of a more homely nurturing overall appearance
1:35:35
than say a clean shaven guy with a buff body who you know might aesthetically and even in some sense be be displaying
1:35:44
aspects of genetic quality whereas less less uh muscle and more facial hair
1:35:50
might be communicating the more nurturing investing side and I think when you look at a species like human
1:35:55
beings we are unusual in many ways compared to the non-human primates right back to how we we started this
1:36:02
discussion but we do have biparental care but a high degree of sexual dimorphism and that's unusual and we
1:36:08
also form long-term bonds and and reproduce so we have these unusual
1:36:14
features that as much as it's amazing to draw on comparative studies across primates and mammals in general there
1:36:21
are some standout things and I think this area of long-term partner formation
1:36:27
and child rearing might might provide some of those answers to the conundrum
1:36:32
surrounding Aesthetics and sexual attractiveness of facial hair I really
1:36:37
don't want to keep you for another you know another two hours but but I but I am I am interested on this point because
1:36:44
this I mean the parenting finding is just fascinating because it's it
1:36:49
really I mean it it's there so there's this very coherent story right that's been told in evolutionary psychology and
1:36:57
to a lesser extent in behavioral ecology that gets told across undergraduate
1:37:02
classrooms that are you know studying this topic and it's this idea of you know masculinity tradeoffs sometimes
1:37:08
masculinity paradoxes where and you know it's very coherent it's it's it's a story that makes sense to everyone the
1:37:14
first time they hear it it's like look as a woman on the one hand you want signals of good genes right right and
1:37:22
masculinity you know your your ability to of your body to withstand you know these high doses of testosterone Etc
1:37:28
your ability to develop robustly uh which is you know correlated with all these things such as provisioning and
1:37:34
and defensive abilities you want all those traits right on the one hand because you're going to have fitter
1:37:39
safer Offspring but then on the other hand right guys who have those traits because you know they're so sexy they're
1:37:46
going to be able to have affairs and they might be more likely to mistreat you right they might if they have higher
1:37:51
testosterone they might be more aggressive to you and so the story that you know we get told we get told in
1:37:56
these classrooms is you know women are are playing a BAL you know the ovulatory
1:38:02
shift stuff has gone out of style right that that was an element of this but in any case even if there's no even if
1:38:08
there's no shifts at ovulation the idea is is that there's a balancing act in place where you have to balance the
1:38:14
benefits and costs of masculinity and the costs are usually related to oh this
1:38:20
guy's not going to be good dad but now you've just told me right that beards
1:38:25
the most sexually dimorphic visual trait and the most obviously masculine trait
1:38:31
right you're you're saying that it comes out as as as better than facial masculinity at communicating the typical
1:38:37
signals of masculinity that trait is more popular among new mothers I mean
1:38:44
this is this is dis this sounds like a disaster for the masculinity trade-off stuff so I guess I'll just I I would
1:38:49
love to have you you know if if if you've got another 10 minutes or so if you could weigh in on the masculinity
1:38:55
trade-off debate I'd be I'd be so grateful for that and then if you could also maybe help me screw my own head
1:39:02
back on with regards to how uh how this beard finding could fit in in a in a coherent way I mean I I I I I totally
1:39:10
believe that the finding is real and robust like there there's no there's no worry that it's just a wonky finding it's more just how could the narrative
1:39:18
this clean narrative that we've been telling ourselves about masc and mate Choice how could it make sense anymore
1:39:24
in the context of this sort of finding yeah honestly everything you just said it sounds uh like the introductions to
1:39:31
most of my papers in the last five years it's like there's uh on the one hand masculinity has these benefits to it but
1:39:38
on the other hand it has these drastically negative connotations sociosexual I mean all the way down to
1:39:46
infidelity which is costly for for mothers uh and also Al violence and all
1:39:52
these other these aspects right which would not be good at all and I think
1:39:57
when you have uh on the one hand something and on the other hand something else it's it's amazing for for
1:40:04
people doing research because you can then use that hypothesis and really
1:40:09
clearly test it does it fall on that one hand or does it fall on the other hand in terms of the results or does it land
1:40:16
somewhere in the middle and so this is no disrespect to the uh mating strategy
1:40:22
theorists and you know Steve gangestad put that forward in his it's a really famous paper in our our field the
1:40:29
Strategic plural pluralism paper in behavioral and brain Sciences in the
1:40:34
2000 I believe and it's still just as relevant today as it was back then I
1:40:39
just wonder my take on it is it's it is a nice narrative and it's conveniently
1:40:47
nice if you're going to restrict yourself to things that are just that muscularity and and facial
1:40:54
masculinity literature and what I've done here is stumble on something that seems to land
1:41:01
awkwardly away from that and using those theories that I've I've come across in
1:41:07
evolutionary psychology again these are some of the the greatest researchers in our our field right that have come up
1:41:13
with these things so there's no disrespect to them it's just it doesn't seem to hold up when you start to look
1:41:19
at what you would call visually conspicuous ornamentation it just doesn't relate directly to formidability
1:41:26
in the same way it doesn't have the same if any biological costs and the social
1:41:33
costs are not seemingly there there is a paper that came out by I believe it was
1:41:38
Yan havil che's research group in the Czech Republic where they I don't know
1:41:43
if Yan was on that paper but they looked at long-term partners and and you know
1:41:48
reproductive success and long-term Partners uh women with long-term Partners who were bearded had higher
1:41:55
reproductive success as well so and I I kind of read that paper and was very very surprised to see it because that
1:42:01
was the first paper that like directly linked reproductive success with this characteristic that I've been studying
1:42:07
and I thought but like you I'm kind of like well if it's also now linked to reproductive success and particularly
1:42:13
preferred among women when judging parenting abilities and nurturance uh who have you know babies under the age
1:42:20
of one who are so helpless and Ms require all the support they can get
1:42:25
this really does fall against the dominant narrative and my thing about it is well let's re
1:42:33
rewrite the narrative I suppose let's have more of a debate about about multivariant masculinity and sexual
1:42:39
selection and you know just I'm always the person it's just like well let's see
1:42:45
how how this holds up let's throw more experiments at this hypothesis and see if it holds up we're trying trying to uh
1:42:52
we're trying to disprove the things that we we accept I believe more than trying
1:42:58
to prove what we think how we think the world works so why not throw a multivariate experiment at this and say
1:43:05
well let's manipulate all the masculine traits in concert so height muscularity
1:43:12
versus body fat facial masculinity versus lower facial masculinity beardedness versus none or or
1:43:19
beardedness versus great beardedness and see how which which traits show the
1:43:25
strongest um effects in concert or independently of one another that would
1:43:30
be a an experiment moving forward do it under the mating strategies theory is it
1:43:36
really a trade-off between shortterm let's have a date or potentially have sex versus now I'm considering uh a pair
1:43:46
bonding situation with um dependent infants or or maybe a graded type of of
1:43:52
mating context where you could then look at the correlations among those multivariate interactions and graded
1:43:59
types of mating it's not always pigeon hold into short versus long term that again is a construct of our research
1:44:08
looking to be experimental but perhaps missing Nuance so I know I've dodged the
1:44:14
question a little bit but uh it's because I don't and this is just all honesty as someone who does research I
1:44:21
honestly don't have the answer right now other than let's do more multivariant
1:44:26
complex experiments to to identify the target of sexual selection more fully yeah I mean I didn't I didn't interpret
1:44:33
that as prevaricating at all I thought I thought that was I thought that was very much I thought that was that was a strong answer I guess the the two things
1:44:39
that are coming to mind immediately one I'm now left even more confused about
1:44:45
the reason beards aren't attractive you're now telling me that not only not only is it a signal I'm more dominant not only is a signal you know that that
1:44:52
I'm older and and have male reproductive status but it also shows that you know I'm going to be a better dad and they're
1:44:58
going to have you know higher reproductive success the idea that you know a trait that shows all these things uh could be you know coming out in
1:45:04
studies as as kind of attractive that's that's still you know bewildering but I totally accept that you know that the
1:45:10
the the the numbers are in on that point and then the second thing is um is just
1:45:15
to point out with this masculinity trade-off narrative that I mean I totally agree that a multivariate
1:45:21
approach is the is the only way forward because one of the things that's so seductive about the masculinity tradeoff
1:45:28
is that there are some traits where it works really well right yes like muscularity which you mentioned it's
1:45:33
like yep women care about it more for short-term than long-term Partners right and yes it's correlated with infidelity
1:45:40
right but it's also correlated with you know um basic appeal and it's it's a pretty clear signal I mean I mean if
1:45:46
we're going to use the word you know genetic robustness to refer to anything thing what what are we referring to if
1:45:52
it's not you know men who are are stronger and more you know physically robust so so so you know there are some
1:45:57
traits where it's like oh masculinity trade-off a masculinity Paradox that does seem right but beards I mean this
1:46:03
is um again as I said it does seem like worst case scenario to be it's like we've got this masculine trait right
1:46:09
that that should be signaling all the same things that muscularity does and yet it's more attractive to women with
1:46:15
young kids than gosh anyway I guess um I will end not a mystery but but I I I'm
1:46:22
walking away with being a little clear on the fact that you know it's not attraction that's the driving force
1:46:28
behind beards it's probably something to do with ma male competition and uh maybe
1:46:34
I guess the next 10 years we'll show uh hopefully something to do with uh parenting ability Barnaby thank you so
1:46:40
much for coming on the show I I couldn't be more grateful for you giving me a couple hours of your time and as my
1:46:45
pleasure I really enjoyed it thanks so much for having me thank you again to Barnaby for being
1:46:52
so generous with his time that was really something special for those who want more of his work I've provided some
1:46:58
links in the show description thank you to the donors and thank you all for listening and also
1:47:04
thank you for your patience I recognize that research has made it very difficult for me to keep up the podcast the way
1:47:10
I'd like to especially given my other public science communication efforts
1:47:16
over on Tik Tok and similar websites but the show isn't over I mean many of you
1:47:21
have reached out to me asking if this is the end and it certainly isn't I mean
1:47:26
we've just published an episode now and I've actually got another full episode recorded that I'm just waiting to
1:47:32
release and probably will release in mid November to create some space here and
1:47:38
if we can get on to a pace of about one solid episode a month I'll be pretty
1:47:44
happy although I recognize that that is a massive disappointment to some of you
1:47:49
who were around during the weekly days so long ago anyway I very much hope you
1:47:54
all enjoyed the last couple of hours I'll release another episode in probably a few weeks maybe less until then have a
1:48:02
very happy Halloween and remember to be kind to
1:48:12
[Music]
1:48:19
animals