This interview explores the profound impact of cocoa on the life of Paul, who views it not just as a beverage but as a sacred medicine with significant physical, psychological, and spiritual effects. He recounts how cocoa helped him reduce alcohol consumption and find purpose, leading him to source and prepare high-quality, ethically produced cocoa. The discussion covers the physiological benefits of cocoa's compounds like magnesium and theobromine, as well as its more subtle "heart-opening" and grounding properties that aid in introspection and healing trauma. Paul details his experiences sourcing cocoa from a permaculture farm in Palanda, Ecuador, highlighting the region's historical significance and the importance of supporting local families who cultivate cocoa sustainably and ethically, contrasting this with the exploitation in the industrial chocolate industry. He also discusses integrating cocoa with other plants for ceremonial use, emphasizing mindful consumption and clear intention, and views cocoa as a gentle "gateway medicine" into the world of natural healing, ultimately aligning with an indigenous prophecy about cocoa returning to heal people's hearts.
Cocoa as Medicine: A Transformative Journey and Ethical Sourcing
0:49 A Life Changed: Paul describes how cocoa entered his life during a critical time (the Corona pandemic) and fundamentally changed it, leading to altered behavior and consumption habits, most notably a complete loss of desire for alcohol (1:22).
2:13 Passionate Preparation: Cocoa has become a craft for Paul, involving preparing, painting, pouring, and packaging the cocoa in his workshop, describing it as a passion and being "in love" with cocoa.
2:44 Physiological and Spiritual Effects: Drinking cocoa causes a physical reaction he describes as cells screaming "yay" (2:51), leading to a sense of well-being and presence. Cocoa is seen as bringing the "spirit" or "head" down, relaxing the mind, and defusing mental constructs.
4:04 Healing Properties: Paul asserts that cocoa has clear healing properties, stating "I know that very clearly" (4:07). He explains the "heart-opening" effect as esoteric language but interprets it as grounding and making perceived threats less frightening (4:48).
5:09 Grounding and Clarity: Cocoa helps people settle into the here and now, becoming more aware of their feelings and surroundings, reducing mental confusion and promoting relaxation (5:16).
5:36 Fear and Spasmolytic (Calming) Effects: Cocoa calms fear, especially for those with unresolved trauma, acting like a "thick blanket" (5:47) that allows for deep breathing and re-evaluation from a different perspective.
6:10 Ceremonial Use and Communication: Ceremonially approaching cocoa involves treating it as a being or person, introducing yourself (6:30) and asking questions to receive answers or insights, often reminding the user of what is good for them (7:37).
7:57 Deeper Levels and Visions: Engaging with cocoa ceremonially, potentially with prayer and intention, can lead to very deep experiences, including visions, hearing things, and receiving clear individual information (8:25).
9:11 Medicine as a Witness: Medicine, like cocoa, can clearly reflect things about oneself, even difficult truths, making it easier to acknowledge and change problematic behaviors (9:27).
10:25 High Magnesium Content: Cocoa is highlighted as having the highest magnesium content of any natural product, present in a complex with iron for optimal absorption, beneficial for athletes (10:30).
11:05 Theobromine and Anandamide: Contains theobromine (similar to theine, can stimulate or relax depending on context) and anandamide (a substance found in few plants, linked to bliss and communication with medicine, though vague for science) (11:13).
12:12 Superfood Qualities: Due to magnesium and antioxidants, cocoa is considered a "superfood," simply "super, super healthy" (12:12).
13:05 Cultivation Symbiosis: Cocoa in its natural environment in Palanda, Ecuador, lives in symbiosis with other plants (citrus, banana, tobacco), absorbing their aromatics. Deep soil, microorganisms, and tiny native bees (pollinators) are vital (13:26).
14:09 Called to Palanda: Paul felt "called" to Palanda, Ecuador, through a recommendation. The region between Ecuador and Peru is the genetic origin of many cocoa varieties and ideal for cocoa cultivation (14:44).
15:01 True Permaculture: The cultivation in Palanda is described as absolute permaculture, with varied plants and low density, unlike monocultures. The farmer, Pina, uses only manual methods ("his hands") and does not use chemicals (15:33).
17:01 Respect for Nature and Family: Impressed by Pina's respect for nature (e.g., recognizing bees as the "actual workers") and the warm family environment (17:25).
17:44 Protecting Cacao Genetics: Pina is acquiring more land further away to protect the rare white porcelain cacao from cross-pollination, a venture Paul intends to support (17:46).
18:51 Ancient Cult Sites: Visiting old cult sites in Palanda reveals stone arrangements, indicating ancient ceremonies took place there (19:05).
19:16 Region of Exchange: The region's relatively flat Andes enabled movement and exchange between different peoples, leading to the origin of cocoa here (19:44).
20:04 5000-Year History: Scientific analysis of clay jugs from Palanda cult sites indicates cocoa use dates back 5000 years, significantly older than the previously assumed 3000 years (20:19).
21:26 Mixing Cocoa with Other Plants: Mixing depends on intention. Compatible spices include black pepper, cinnamon (as an accelerator), nutmeg, turmeric, vanilla, and tonka beans (21:32).
22:40 Alcohol is Incompatible: Alcohol is explicitly called out as clashing with cocoa medicine, disrupting the effect and feeling unpleasant (22:40). Advised against mixed consumption (23:19).
23:36 Mushrooms as a Complement: Healing mushrooms (not just psychoactive ones, but also "spirit-healing" ones) pair well with cocoa, which acts as a heart-opening, grounding base for the mushroom's effects (23:36).
24:17 Intention is Key: Always question the intention behind consuming cocoa or other medicines – is it for a need, a specific goal, or just a "high"? Clarity is important (24:17).
24:48 Casual vs. Ceremonial Use: Acknowledges that sometimes cocoa is enjoyed casually like an evening beer ("hot chocolate and cuddle") but emphasizes the importance of clear intention for goal-oriented ceremonies (24:48).
25:37 Cocoa to Coca Connection: Notes a perceived connection between cocoa and coca leaves, including similar shape (different sizes) and the nutritional value of chewed coca leaves for mountain survival (25:37).
27:02 Problem with Coca in Europe: Due to the abuse of the cocaine extract, access to beneficial coca leaves for medicinal or nutritional use is illegal in Europe, despite their health benefits (27:02). Calls for education to differentiate between the leaf and the extract (28:24).
29:04 Neo-Shamanism and Cultural Exchange: Defends "neo-shamanism" not as appropriation but as a necessary cultural exchange due to the loss of indigenous European traditions and a "cry for help" from Western civilization to reconnect with natural medicine (31:45).
30:40 European Plants: Hops are mentioned as a European plant that pairs well with cocoa due to its calming, mood-lifting effect, similar to CBD (30:40). The bitterness of hops is accepted as medicine (31:17).
33:21 Indigenous Knowledge Preservation: South America is seen as having preserved traditional shamanism and plant knowledge that was suppressed in Europe, offering a "jump start" for Europeans to remember their own plant traditions (33:21).
36:21 Ambassador for Medicine: Paul sees himself as an ambassador for cocoa and natural medicine, fully committing to this path even if it means sacrifices (36:21).
38:38 Problems with Extracts: Criticizes the extraction of substances like cocaine from coca or specific compounds from cannabis, which breaks the natural balance and demonizes the whole plant (38:38). Neo-shamanism is seen as positive for fostering connection (38:46).
39:46 Chocolate vs. Cocoa: Sweet chocolate offers dopamine/serotonin but often compensates for separation/depression and is unhealthy due to sugar. Pure cocoa, however, addresses the cause by fostering inner bliss and well-being (39:46).
40:42 Aiding Shadow Work: Cocoa works well with "shadow work," helping to recognize and acknowledge personal shadows from a relaxed perspective (40:42). It holds the person, preventing them from sinking into the problem (42:21).
43:51 Gentle Gateway Medicine: Cocoa is described as a gentle "gateway medicine," less intense than ayahuasca (43:59), that can help people open up to working with plant spirits and natural medicine (44:15). For Paul, it was the gateway medicine; for others, it might be tobacco (44:40).
45:45 Finding His Path: Paul, being highly sensitive, is grateful that cocoa found him, offering a less hardcore path than psychedelics he explored previously (LSD) (45:45).
46:46 Caution with Psychedelics: Warns others to be extremely careful when seeking experiences with psychedelic plants, especially if inexperienced, and to double-check providers through recommendations (46:46).
47:22 Cocoa Suffices: As Paul becomes more sensitive and open, he finds that cocoa is completely sufficient for him and doesn't need stronger substances (47:22). Cocoa ceremonies offer a safer way to practice observations needed for stronger medicines (48:01).
48:22 Personal Ceremonies: Cocoa can be used for personal ceremonies, creating a nice atmosphere (48:22).
48:59 Group Ceremonies: Group ceremonies are seen as more beautiful and better. Paul provides structure but believes the best ceremonies happen together with multiple space holders (50:10). Flexibility within a warm structure is important (51:36).
52:04 Collaborative Effort: Paul prefers to prepare the cocoa and hold space, encouraging others to contribute skills like singing to enrich the ceremony (52:04).
54:16 Raw vs. Roasted Cocoa: Emphasizes using a high proportion of raw cocoa for its medicinal, heart-opening properties, which are lost above 50°C (54:16). A small amount of roasted cocoa (10%) is included for aroma (56:14).
57:17 Preparation Temperature: Crucial to not heat cocoa too high when preparing it to preserve proteins and medicinal qualities. The optimal temperature is below 42°C (57:17). A "finger test" (can you keep your finger in the liquid?) is a practical guide (58:26).
59:01 Honey Sweetener: Recommends honey as a sweetener (despite being vegan, he sees honey as medicine and uses it) as it complements cocoa and its medicinal properties are preserved if not overheated (59:01).
1:00:01 Panela (Raw Cane Sugar): Panela, unrefined sugar cane juice boiled down, grows near cocoa and is considered one of the best sugars. It contains minerals and has nutritional value, unlike refined white sugar which leaches minerals (1:00:12).
1:01:55 Refined Sugar is Harmful: Refined white sugar is criticized as incredibly harmful because it is stripped of minerals and takes minerals from our bones (1:01:16).
1:02:46 Sourcing Panela: Excited to find a panela farm next to their cocoa plantation in Palanda, ensuring an ethical source (1:02:46). Logistics for export are challenging (1:03:28).
1:04:08 Cocoa Workshop: Shows his workshop where fermented organic beans are ground below 42°C to maintain raw quality (1:04:08).
1:07:18 Date Sweetener: Dates are also a good sweetener for cocoa ceremonies, providing a balanced mix of sugars that are easily metabolized (1:07:18).
1:08:00 Background for the Role: Paul's background in cooking (preparing healthy food) and 25 years of interest in shamanism makes him well-suited for his role with cocoa (1:08:00).
1:09:10 Finding Purpose with Cocoa: Disoriented after leaving his old life (festival food stands), Paul received a cocoa machine as a gift, which became a turning point, fitting his craft, spiritual interests, and personal needs (1:09:10).
1:10:05 Ethical Production Contrast: Highlights the stark contrast between ethical cocoa sourcing (direct relationship, fair price set by farmers) and the industrial cocoa market in West Africa (slavery, child labor, exploitation by large companies like Ferrero, Nestlé, Mars) (1:10:05).
1:11:35 "Doing Good" Approach: True "doing good" means empowering locals by bringing processing machines to them, not just buying raw materials (1:11:35). Ethical sourcing requires direct contact and treating farmers like family (1:12:46).
1:13:52 Verifiable Ethics: Aims for a comprehensive, verifiable ethical approach on all levels, not just labels (1:13:52). Works against colonial thinking by helping locals process their cocoa (1:14:02).
1:14:40 Creating "Competition": Supporting locals to process their cocoa creates potential "competition," but this is acceptable because the philosophy is based on love and empowering people (1:14:40).
1:17:10 Alternatives to Mass Chocolate: Mentions ethical chocolate alternatives like GEPA and Rapunsel, promoting less consumption of higher quality, healthier products (1:17:10).
1:17:43 Trust over Competition: The idea of competition is absurd when discussing cocoa as medicine. Empowering the family in Palanda creates stability and mutual trust, ensuring continued supply through good relationships (1:17:43).
1:19:12 Certificates vs. Trust: Criticizes many certificates (like Fair Trade for cocoa) as fraud or greenwashing (1:19:12), noting they don't ensure liberation from structural slavery. Real, serious standards exist but are expensive for small farmers (1:20:12). Direct trust with the farmer, based on consistent quality and fair pricing, is presented as a better indicator (1:21:10).
1:23:13 Future Plans: Hopes to visit indigenous cooperatives in Colombia next year to explore different cocoa qualities and methods (1:23:13).
1:24:19 Vision: Shares an indigenous wisdom prophecy stating that when people fight and harm the planet, cocoa will return from the Amazon to heal their hearts (1:24:19). Paul commits to supporting this as an ambassador (1:25:22).
1:24:51 Collective Healing: True heart opening with cocoa can be painful but is ultimately cleansing and healing, especially collectively (1:24:51).